Charlie Hauck, Part 1: Better Follow-Up and Clear Sales Decisions

Transcript

0:02 We have another episode of Tailwind.

0:04 Today we're joined by Charlie Houk.

0:05 Charlie, tell us a little bit more about

0:06 yourself.

0:07 >> Hey, Austin, thank you for the invite

0:09 and thank you for the opportunity to

0:11 introduce myself. I'm Charlie Houk. I'm

0:13 the founder and lead trainer and for a

0:16 long time lead content creator for

0:19 Growth Dynamics LLC. And

0:22 Growth Dynamics is a

0:24 business development and executive

0:26 performance consulting practice that I

0:29 founded uh in

0:31 2001

0:33 after spending eight or nine years

0:36 working with other people in their

0:38 consulting businesses doing business

0:40 development consulting and training. I'm

0:44 non-denominational, meaning I don't have

0:47 an industry specific, I don't have a

0:49 technology specific. I don't really have

0:52 a size specific. We work with people,

0:56 companies, profitable

1:00 Hopefully they're all profitable.

1:02 For-profit, non-profit, any organization

1:05 where the people have to become both

1:07 efficient and effective in leading

1:10 conversations

1:12 and turning those conversations into

1:14 successful next steps and successful

1:17 outcomes. And in a lot of cases

1:20 successful disengagements. So getting to

1:23 know sooner rather than later and not

1:27 having to work real hard to do it.

1:29 >> Yeah.

1:30 >> So

1:30 we're we're in the business of helping

1:32 people be the most effective they can be

1:35 in structured business communications

1:38 that are beneficial to both parties.

1:41 >> I like the emphasis on getting to know

1:43 as well. Not that we all want that, but

1:45 it's also super important and I think

1:48 uh

1:49 when people say, you know, happy to got

1:51 that get that no, it can really tell

1:53 that they know exactly what they're

1:54 talking about for anything else when

1:55 they talk about training?

1:57 >> Yeah, um look, there's there's a a

2:00 simple truth and the truth is there's

2:02 only one part of the business

2:04 development process that you can

2:05 control. And that's the first decision

2:09 to take action to engage in a

2:11 conversation with someone, whether it's

2:13 meeting someone at a trade show, whether

2:16 it's getting referred to someone,

2:18 whether it's cold calls, whether it's an

2:20 inbound lead. The only part of that

2:23 process that you actually can dictate

2:26 is will I take the next step? Will I

2:29 pick up the phone, send the email? Will

2:31 I respond to that uh request for

2:34 information? Beyond that, it's it's a

2:37 skill game.

2:38 >> Mhm.

2:39 >> And

2:40 in a skill game it also turns into a

2:42 numbers game.

2:43 Well,

2:44 if anybody tells you sales is not a

2:46 numbers game,

2:47 um they're not telling you the truth,

2:49 but I wouldn't trust them very long. Um

2:53 but the what you've got to decide is do

2:55 I like the numbers?

2:57 >> Mhm.

2:57 >> And so if you don't like the numbers,

2:58 you got to change your process.

3:01 And so um

3:03 if you're going to get more no's than

3:04 yes, yes's, why don't we just start with

3:07 the truth and say there's a real good

3:09 possibility, no matter how much we may

3:11 like each other, no matter how much

3:13 interest you may have,

3:15 there's a good chance we're going to

3:17 figure out that it's not we're not

3:19 qualified to work with each other, it's

3:21 it's this opportunity isn't right for

3:23 both of us. And so a no with the least

3:27 amount of expenses a really good no.

3:30 >> Yeah. So, you know, we were talking a

3:31 little bit before the podcast and you

3:33 were you were saying like one of the

3:34 things that you really honed in is the

3:35 ability to get people to get back to

3:37 you.

3:38 >> Yeah.

3:38 >> No's being one of those, uh but tell me

3:40 a little bit more about that skill and

3:42 actually getting responses cuz the worst

3:44 possible thing in my experience is

3:46 getting through like an entire effort of

3:48 reaching out to somebody

3:49 and just getting crickets. Just tell me

3:51 no at the very beginning and I'd be

3:53 stoked. Cool. I don't

3:54 I don't I don't fit you. We'll go on to

3:56 the next person. We'll find the people

3:57 that we are a good fit for. That's

3:59 great.

4:00 >> Yeah, um you know, there's a lot of

4:03 different things in our lives

4:06 where

4:07 I can think of myself as a at a much

4:10 younger age

4:11 um

4:14 going out on a Friday night before I was

4:16 married, obviously, and uh trying to get

4:20 some one of the opposite opposite sex to

4:21 continue the conversation, call me back.

4:24 Um so, there I wish I had known some of

4:26 this voodoo back then cuz

4:29 >> Yeah.

4:30 >> I don't know. You you never know what

4:31 might have happened. But, getting people

4:33 to call you back is difficult because

4:36 the programming that

4:39 we have as business development people

4:42 and they have as customers

4:45 is so ingrained in us at such an early

4:48 age that it's almost like well, it's not

4:51 rude, it's not disrespectful,

4:54 it's just the game that those sales

4:56 people have to play to do business with

4:58 us.

4:59 >> Mhm.

4:59 >> And so, when we like people say, "Oh,

5:02 yes, I'm very interested." Well, very

5:05 interested and intending to do anything

5:08 are not the same. They're They may be in

5:11 the same cow pasture, but they're not

5:14 the same cows.

5:15 >> Mhm.

5:15 >> And so,

5:17 um getting people to call you back means

5:19 you have to understand at the very

5:21 beginning that um

5:23 what you're competing against with that

5:25 person

5:27 and his or her decision to continue the

5:29 conversation, to call you back, to send

5:32 the next response in an email

5:35 you're not just competing against

5:37 the other people that they know that do

5:39 what you do or offer what you do, but

5:42 you're competing against everything in

5:45 in person's life

5:46 for 15 minutes of their time.

5:50 >> Mhm.

5:51 >> And to get 15 minutes of their time, you

5:54 better be really, really, um,

5:58 sharp in how you start the conversation.

6:02 And so, getting people to call you back

6:04 means you have to break all of those

6:06 subconscious, but enormously powerful

6:09 patterns. Um,

6:10 the customer is always right. So,

6:12 whatever the customer wants to do,

6:15 it's their not only are they right, it's

6:17 their right to do it to you.

6:19 So, until we say, I play by different

6:22 rules, can we agree to play by a

6:24 different set of rules, you can't be

6:26 surprised, um, ever if people just play

6:30 by the rules that you never you never

6:32 agreed to play by. They're just implied

6:35 because nobody said it's different. But,

6:37 what I find that most people do is they

6:40 start they they don't start with the

6:43 truth.

6:45 Um,

6:46 and it's not an intentional,

6:48 um,

6:50 steering someone to the wrong place, but

6:53 saying, "Hey, I'm glad you called me.

6:55 You're we're absolutely going to be able

6:57 to help you."

6:58 Well, that's a pretty bold statement

7:01 when you even had you haven't even had

7:02 an initial conversation. So, you're

7:05 making a promise you may not be able to

7:06 deliver.

7:08 And so, everyone in that you and I know

7:12 in all of our different spheres of life

7:15 have met people that have been stiffed

7:19 by a contractor,

7:21 um,

7:22 anybody that they're trying to do

7:23 business with. We could be in a 5-minute

7:25 retail setting, made a big promise, and

7:28 then failed.

7:29 So,

7:30 the prospect or suspect is immediately,

7:34 uh, here we go again.

7:36 So, the first thing you got to do to get

7:38 people to call you back is not do the

7:40 things that make them not call you back.

7:42 >> Yeah.

7:42 >> So, stop making promises. Start with the

7:45 truth. Hey, I'm happy to have this

7:47 conversation with you.

7:49 I don't know if I can help you.

7:51 >> Mhm.

7:51 >> Unless

7:52 you and I can spend some time to talk

7:54 about why you even picked up the phone

7:56 or why you sent me that message. So, I'm

7:58 going to need some help. So, one of the

8:00 first things you have to do is tell the

8:02 truth. Don't position yourself as

8:04 already making the sale. Position

8:06 yourself with this is a two-way

8:08 conversation, not a one-way pitch and

8:10 hope.

8:11 Um the second thing you've got to do is

8:14 you've got to be able to connect people

8:15 on an emotional level.

8:17 People buy things emotionally. And if

8:20 you understand the psychology of uh what

8:23 makes people uh energized or motivated,

8:27 there is a lot of value in positive

8:30 emotion,

8:32 but positive emotion tends to end up

8:34 like sugar in our diet.

8:36 It tastes good, and we want a lot of it,

8:39 but the sugar crash is brutal. And then

8:41 you come back to the reality of man, I

8:44 just

8:45 I just burned my body bad just to just

8:49 to eat four Krispy Kreme donuts right

8:51 out of the oven. Um so,

8:55 what really makes people want to

8:56 continue the conversation

8:59 is you have to get them connected on a

9:02 negative emotion.

9:04 >> Mhm.

9:04 >> And so, why do people do business with

9:07 me? They're tired of working with

9:09 They're tired of hiring sales people

9:12 that the best sale they ever made was at

9:15 the interview that got them the job.

9:17 >> Yeah.

9:17 >> They're frustrated with people that are

9:19 enormously um active in the marketplace,

9:23 but terribly non-productive when it

9:25 comes to the end of the month.

9:27 They're fed up with sales people that um

9:31 don't understand when the work day

9:33 starts and stops, and they're constantly

9:36 in the mode of getting ready to get

9:37 ready. So, negative emotions make people

9:41 stop and think,

9:43 "I hate that feeling."

9:45 >> Mhm.

9:45 >> "I I I'm afraid it's going to happen

9:48 again.

9:49 I'm angry that it happened the last

9:51 time, and I'm fed up with dealing with

9:54 it every day." Negative emotion makes

9:57 people want to

9:59 go back to a memory, process the

10:01 feeling, and say,

10:04 "I can't keep doing that."

10:06 And so, well, how would you fix that?

10:08 Can you help me?

10:10 What do you offer?

10:11 So, changing from the feature and

10:14 benefit pitch to the

10:17 the

10:18 um

10:18 the opportunity you can tell me none of

10:20 these things bother you,

10:22 but

10:23 I I'm best when I'm working with people

10:25 who are worried, frustrated, angry,

10:28 upset. I got a list of 50 of those

10:30 words, and that's what compels people to

10:34 lean into you instead of you having to

10:37 pull them across the finish line.

10:39 >> Yeah.

10:39 >> So, tell the truth by going backwards. I

10:43 don't know if I can help you.

10:44 >> Mhm.

10:45 >> Engage the conversation with negative

10:47 emotions, because human beings are not

10:50 logical, they're emotional. So, key into

10:53 that. And then, set contracts like, if

10:57 we have a good conversation, and I'll

10:59 ask you what good means, you can ask me

11:02 what good means, can we agree on what

11:05 happens next? How we continue the

11:07 conversation, or should we make a

11:09 decision there's no conversation to

11:11 continue?

11:12 >> Yeah.

11:12 >> Either answer is okay.

11:15 So, in most cases, whether it's in

11:18 business development or trying to get

11:20 your kid to clean up his or her room,

11:23 people like, "Sure, I'll do that." But,

11:26 there's no commitment to that.

11:28 And so, if you if If get an agreement,

11:31 but you don't have a committed

11:32 agreement,

11:34 it's intention, it's not it's interested

11:37 in doing it, it's not intending to do

11:39 it.

11:39 So, that's the basic structure of how we

11:42 work with people to get them to call

11:44 people back.

11:45 Um

11:47 the the question that we deal with a lot

11:49 of is, "Well, what happens if I didn't

11:51 do that? Now what do I do?"

11:54 >> Mhm.

11:54 >> And and so, this is where

11:59 you've got to get really used to being

12:02 completely backwards

12:04 and saying what you don't want to hear.

12:07 So, I coach people, say what you don't

12:09 want to hear. Hey,

12:11 I've made three or four attempts.

12:13 I must have made a mistake when I left

12:15 the last conversation.

12:17 I thought we were going to meet again or

12:19 talk again, and obviously you've changed

12:21 your mind.

12:22 Could you just tell me the best thing I

12:24 can do is let you go?

12:26 So, giving people the open door instead

12:29 of trying to close it so they can't

12:30 escape,

12:32 people never want to be held hostage by

12:35 uh

12:35 a stranger, particularly one that's

12:37 trying to get a signature or a purchase

12:39 order.

12:39 >> Yeah.

12:40 >> So, I tell everyone the best way to

12:43 It's It's not necessarily

12:46 Austin, what everybody wants is, "How do

12:48 I make them do it?" I can't.

12:50 But how do I get them to be willing to

12:52 do it

12:53 of their own reasoning

12:56 is is the better question,

12:58 and asking them.

13:01 So, Austin,

13:03 if I have trouble getting in touch with

13:04 you after this meeting, what's the best

13:07 way to What's the best way for me to

13:09 stay in touch? What's the best way for

13:11 us not to lose this momentum? Charlie

13:13 Hoult doesn't have the answer to that

13:14 question.

13:15 >> Right.

13:16 >> Austin does.

13:18 So, ask the person you're trying to

13:19 catch up to.

13:21 What happens after this meeting

13:24 and how do we get to the next step that

13:26 we both know when and how it's going to

13:28 happen.

13:29 >> Mhm.

13:30 >> Um the

13:32 So, I have a a past client. We do some

13:35 work off and on with them, and they they

13:36 were on uh

13:38 salesforce.com.

13:41 >> Mhm.

13:41 >> And they had all their guys putting all

13:43 their call notes in there.

13:45 And it seemed like and every now and

13:47 then they

13:48 transcribe a bunch of them and ship them

13:50 over to me and I'd review them to see

13:52 what their team was doing. And everybody

13:54 had follow up in 2 weeks.

13:56 Had a great meeting with Bob at ABC

13:58 supplier or whatever. Uh we talked about

14:01 pumps and faucets.

14:03 Next step, calling back in 2 weeks.

14:06 And I'm like

14:08 yes, you're allowed to call back in 2

14:10 weeks. Doesn't mean anybody's going to

14:11 be there. So, didn't agree to answer the

14:14 phone. He just said, "Go ahead, call

14:15 follow up in 2 weeks." No commitment.

14:19 >> Mhm.

14:19 >> And so, we've got to get willing to say

14:22 before we leave the door,

14:25 what happens next? When will it happen?

14:28 And are we both committed to this

14:30 schedule?

14:31 >> Yeah.

14:31 >> So,

14:32 um the line we use, the best time to

14:35 diffuse a bomb is before it goes off.

14:38 So, I get a lot of clients saying, "How

14:40 do I make somebody call me back?" Go

14:42 negative.

14:44 Let go of the leash and tell them it's

14:45 okay to leave if the conversation's

14:47 over.

14:48 >> Yeah.

14:49 >> Um

14:51 the other thing is to say, "Look, let's

14:52 just Let's try to fix it before it

14:54 happens."

14:56 And then the other one is um

14:59 if you're following up on email or

15:01 texts,

15:02 um

15:03 the subject line

15:05 is

15:07 the subject line is go ahead and be

15:09 crazy creative in in a subject line.

15:13 Because what are What are the things

15:15 that most people that follow up type in

15:17 the subject line? If If someone's trying

15:19 to get you to call them back, what does

15:20 that subject line in an email always

15:22 say?

15:23 >> Just following up. Checking in.

15:26 >> Checking in. Want to see Want to see if

15:29 there's anything else you need. And it's

15:31 just like uh I've I've read 800 of them

15:34 this morning. I I don't One more.

15:36 Nothing there. So, I think the subject

15:39 line is your opportunity to just smash

15:44 the rules that we all expect of I hate

15:46 to call it professional decorum, but

15:48 just the communication model that we've

15:51 all been trained to abide by. Um I sent

15:55 somebody a a guy we'd been working with.

15:58 We'd done a bunch of training.

16:00 Um he wanted to continue cuz he had a

16:02 class of new people.

16:05 And he had said, "Hey, I want to get

16:06 these people scheduled for in August for

16:08 training." So, in June I'm

16:11 "Hey, Tom. Uh uh

16:13 what's going on what's going on?" And

16:15 couple emails,

16:17 couple uh

16:18 uh voicemails into his phone, nothing.

16:21 So, finally I just typed in the subject

16:23 line, "Dazed and Confused."

16:26 Um

16:27 and I got a response back within 20

16:29 minutes.

16:30 >> Yeah.

16:31 >> And the response was, "I find this email

16:35 very offensive." Or I think it was "I

16:38 find this email very unprofessional."

16:40 >> Yeah.

16:41 >> Um so, I picked up the phone and I

16:44 called him and I said, "Tom, I think I

16:46 just shot myself in the foot with that.

16:49 My guess is you don't want to do

16:50 training."

16:51 >> Yeah.

16:52 >> And he went, "No, no, no, no."

16:55 "But we got to have We'll have lunch

16:57 come up next week." So, I drove up from

16:59 Philly to North Jersey. We had lunch.

17:02 And I said, "Before we get started, can

17:04 we just talk about my email cuz I think

17:06 I owe you an apology."

17:07 "Yeah, that was I don't know what that

17:09 was." And I said, "Well,

17:11 I was over six. What did I have to

17:12 lose?"

17:13 And I said, "Which one did you respond

17:16 to?

17:17 >> Mhm.

17:19 >> And he just sat and looked at me.

17:21 Went, "Oh,

17:23 damn."

17:25 >> [laughter]

17:25 >> And I said, "So, I'm going to ask you,

17:28 how many professionally correct

17:30 follow-up emails is your sales team

17:32 sending out today?"

17:34 >> Right.

17:35 >> So,

17:36 getting people to call you back

17:39 is set the rules up. If you tell people

17:42 you must,

17:43 it's not 100%, but your odds of not

17:46 having to

17:47 chase people and see your sales cycle

17:50 extend,

17:51 and kind of keep things on track, is

17:54 just changing the way you approach it

17:56 and saying, "Look, one of the things I

17:58 hate most is

18:00 having a great conversation and trying

18:02 to figure out why the hell you go

18:03 silent. Can we just talk about how we

18:05 don't let that happen?"

18:07 >> Yeah.

18:07 >> And so, if you're not willing to take

18:10 control because

18:12 I'm as valuable to that conversation as

18:14 he is.

18:16 And even though I'm the seller,

18:19 in a way,

18:20 I'm the buyer. I'm buying what you're

18:22 willing to pay me before I give you

18:24 what I can help you help you with. So,

18:26 we got to change our attitude about all

18:28 that stuff.

18:29 >> Yeah.

18:30 >> So, it's it's as much

18:32 realizing that we're programmed

18:35 to actually do things that set up that

18:37 people don't call us back.

18:39 >> Mhm.

18:40 >> So, stop doing those things that create

18:43 your

18:44 That's why most people get out of the

18:46 business. I work my butt off and I get

18:48 treated

18:50 like a pauper.

18:52 Well, act like you're worth something

18:53 and see what the difference is.

18:55 >> One of the things that you said in there

18:57 really struck a chord with me because um

19:00 I had a really interesting cold call

19:02 yesterday that I made and you were

19:04 saying, you want to connect to the pain

19:06 or the negative, not the features

19:08 benefits.

19:09 >> Yeah.

19:09 >> And I I on this call and I you know, I

19:11 do my little hey, here's the the pains

19:14 that we solve type of stuff and you

19:16 know, press response. We're crushing it.

19:18 That's all good. And I go, "Hey, sounds

19:19 like we can't help you. Thank you so

19:21 much for your time." And he goes, "Wait,

19:22 wait, wait, wait, wait." "Are you guys

19:23 like a competitor to this? Or like are

19:25 what are you guys like this?" And I

19:26 said, "Oh, no, we're a competitor to

19:28 them." Which is that's becoming a

19:30 feature benefit conversation, but I was

19:32 like, I'm I'll answer this question

19:33 honestly like I we're going to close

19:35 this thing down.

19:36 Um and I'm expecting like no further

19:39 conversation cuz I'm not going to solve

19:41 something that's already solved

19:42 internally in this organization.

19:44 For I can't figure out why. He goes,

19:46 "Interesting. Tell me a little bit

19:47 more." And so we have a little bit more

19:50 of a conversation on the feature

19:51 benefits, which I'm like, this is not

19:52 how this is supposed to go. And he goes,

19:55 "I want to talk in 2 weeks. Like let's

19:57 get some time."

19:58 Totally threw me for for a loop cuz I

20:00 was just sitting there and I was like, I

20:02 just whiffed on what the negative was

20:04 and somehow feature benefit is getting

20:07 me in the door. Now, I'm not going to

20:08 change how I approach things because I

20:10 totally agree with the negative.

20:12 I'd be curious in your experience, um

20:15 what do you think is happening on his

20:16 end on that dynamic? One of the guesses

20:18 I had was he didn't want to admit that

20:20 they had a problem to some a stranger.

20:23 The other one was

20:24 he might actually genuinely be looking

20:26 for it uh everything is good, but I'm

20:28 willing to actually invest in like

20:30 improving. And I'm going to have to have

20:32 a discovery call to find out the truth,

20:33 but I'd be curious what your instincts

20:35 are telling you is happening in that cuz

20:36 it threw me for a loop. I was like, this

20:38 isn't how I'm supposed to win the

20:39 meeting. Like this is the wrong way to

20:41 do it.

20:42 >> Both of your assumptions, I think, are

20:44 correct.

20:45 >> Yeah.

20:45 >> Um I'll go to the second one. What's the

20:48 goal of every business What's

20:50 They won't admit it sometimes, but

20:52 really why do we all own businesses?

20:54 >> Yeah.

20:55 >> To make money.

20:56 >> Yeah.

20:56 >> And

20:57 and we want more money.

20:59 We want a more successful business. And

21:02 if whatever you said in whatever version

21:04 of feature and benefits, you struck a

21:06 nerve with that person that there was

21:08 something in what you said that he

21:10 didn't know how to do or what it was.

21:12 Yeah. So, by him not knowing

21:16 what you know as an expert, you became

21:19 valuable at that moment. Mhm.

21:21 And by not having that attitude, if you

21:25 talked the talked picked up the phone

21:27 and started a conversation,

21:30 I now have to get you to sign up with

21:32 me.

21:33 And so, when you're willing to say,

21:34 "Hey, look, it sounds like this is one I

21:36 missed there's no value here, there's no

21:38 opportunity for me to help you. So, I'm

21:40 okay if you hang up the phone."

21:43 It's like

21:44 nobody wants a stranger to walk into

21:46 their office and say, "Let me tell you

21:47 what you suck at."

21:49 >> [laughter]

21:49 >> Yeah.

21:50 >> So,

21:51 you you you didn't create that

21:53 impression.

21:54 >> Yeah.

21:55 >> So, you said, "Hey, it sounds like

21:56 you're running a pretty good business. I

21:58 should let you go and get back to it."

22:00 Well, well, well, well, wait a minute.

22:02 >> Mhm.

22:02 >> There might be something there was

22:04 So, why did you ask me to stick around?

22:07 >> Yeah.

22:08 >> You know, and and and so, I think your

22:10 assumptions were both 100% correct.

22:13 >> Yeah.

22:14 >> And so,

22:16 if if

22:18 nobody calls someone up and says, "Hey,

22:20 I'd like to know if we can do business,

22:22 but I have to tell you we suck at what

22:23 we do."

22:25 >> Right.

22:25 >> You know, our customer service, I'm not

22:28 even sure any of them are have graduated

22:30 from high school. I don't know if we can

22:33 actually deliver to anybody on time.

22:35 We're so bad and a lot of our products

22:37 fail. So, everybody says my stuff's the

22:40 best and our people are the greatest.

22:42 >> Yeah.

22:43 >> So, the moment you fall into that

22:45 pattern, they're like, "Yeah, yeah,

22:47 yeah,

22:47 I don't need I don't need another one of

22:49 those stories."

22:51 >> Mhm.

22:51 >> So, that's why we we I I just train

22:54 everybody stop selling.

22:56 >> Yeah.

22:57 >> And and the moment you can stop selling

22:59 and and say, "Can we just have a a

23:01 3-minute conversation? I'll share with

23:03 you what I help people with." And you

23:05 can tell me if any of it's worth the

23:07 time to schedule

23:10 the next step.

23:12 >> Yeah.

23:13 >> And so, when the guy says, "Call me in 2

23:15 weeks." The the magic trick at that

23:18 moment is to say,

23:19 "Because I'm

23:21 I tell people I got ADHD and sometimes

23:23 can we schedule it now? So, take your

23:26 phone out

23:27 and say, "Can I put a calendar in and

23:28 send you an invite?"

23:30 >> Mhm.

23:31 >> Um

23:32 your chances of having that meeting

23:34 stick go up exponentially.

23:37 >> Sorry.

23:38 >> So, I I do almost everything that I can

23:42 on a schedule.

23:45 >> Yeah, it's a great way to get a

23:46 commitment. And then, if

23:47 >> Exactly.

23:48 >> If they don't show up or if they don't

23:51 if they do cancel, at least you've

23:53 gotten an answer from them, right? And

23:55 if they cancel and they don't get back

23:56 to you, to me that's pretty much like

23:58 they never intended to show up to that

24:00 meeting. They're They're They're just

24:02 trying to dodge you.

24:03 >> Yeah.

24:04 >> There can be some pretty clear no's. And

24:05 then, usually what I do is, "Hey, I'm

24:07 going to assume that you're not

24:09 interested anymore. Priorities have

24:10 shifted. I I'm not going to follow up

24:12 anymore." And the amount of times that

24:14 people will get back to you and go,

24:15 "Hold on. Hold on. I'm sorry. I've just

24:16 been really busy. I actually do want

24:18 to." is through the roof in comparison

24:21 to you know, just checking in checking

24:23 in. Let's reschedule. Uh

24:25 >> The pressure belongs on them.

24:27 >> Yeah.

24:28 >> And And look, in all of our businesses,

24:31 I think we So many people operate within

24:34 a uh uh uh

24:36 scarcity mentality.

24:38 >> Mhm.

24:38 >> So,

24:40 every breathing

24:42 human being, they're like, "That looks

24:43 qualified to me.

24:45 I got to reel that one in and get it

24:47 because I don't know when the next one's

24:49 going to come by my door."

24:51 >> Yeah.

24:51 >> Um

24:52 Look, I came out I will I don't hide it.

24:55 I came out of the Sandler sales network.

24:57 and one of the first things I remember

24:59 ever learning when I was a trainee

25:01 there,

25:03 SW3N,

25:04 some will, some won't, so what next?

25:07 >> Yeah.

25:07 >> And um

25:10 I If you live anywhere near

25:12 an urban area in the United States,

25:14 there is more than enough business for

25:16 all of us.

25:17 >> Yeah.

25:18 >> And even if it's it's not everybody

25:20 today, some people it's just not it it's

25:22 not the right time.

25:24 Um

25:26 But it doesn't mean

25:27 a year from now, 6 weeks from now.

25:31 Walking away and saying

25:33 it's no for now, but I'm going to call

25:35 that guy back. I think there was a

25:36 conversation that we didn't finish.

25:39 >> Yeah.

25:39 >> So

25:40 >> I think I Like I think the urge makes a

25:42 ton of sense for people to want to be

25:44 able to sell to every single person and

25:46 to say, "Well, my addressable market is

25:48 any person that breathes."

25:50 Um and and I get the urge from like a

25:53 perspective of Do you imagine how much

25:56 money we would make if every single

25:57 person And then you see a couple rare

25:59 companies like a Walmart or like you

26:02 know, social media company. Like Those

26:04 are exceptions to the rules and should

26:06 never be followed as guidelines.

26:08 >> Right.

26:08 >> But you know, I think when when you

26:10 start really honing in to who you want

26:13 to talk to and then being very

26:14 discerning and even saying no to some

26:16 folks,

26:17 um I do believe genuinely believe

26:18 there's something, you know, difference

26:20 between good money and bad money.

26:22 And like

26:22 >> get the money.

26:24 >> Yeah.

26:24 >> I love [laughter] it.

26:25 >> And and I think

26:27 being being able to really start

26:29 focusing in and like there's even, you

26:31 know, I've been working in situations

26:32 where I'm like, I now know how to do my

26:34 discovery calls better because I'm going

26:35 to try to run certain people off because

26:38 what I've seen in working with them and

26:40 it ends up eating into my margins

26:42 because

26:43 these characteristics come into play.

26:46 >> My my business, um we do a lot of

26:49 training, but with everyone that we

26:50 train, we give them unlimited one-on-one

26:53 coaching. Now, I'm not sitting here 24

26:56 hours a day taking calls. I don't want

26:58 people to get that impression.

26:59 A lot of people never take advantage of

27:01 the coaching.

27:02 >> Yeah.

27:04 >> In a way, I'm sorry because they're not

27:05 getting the full benefit of what we do.

27:07 On the other hand, thank you very much.

27:09 You're not clogging up my calendar with

27:12 worthless conversations.

27:14 But, my entire business runs on

27:16 referrals.

27:17 And

27:19 I get it because I tell people that's

27:21 how they pay for the unlimited coaching.

27:24 >> Mhm.

27:24 >> And so, I don't want everybody because I

27:28 can't service that many people. And when

27:30 I can't service that many people, I

27:32 can't help people create life-changing

27:34 decisions with how they do business and

27:37 manage themselves personally and

27:38 professionally.

27:40 >> Yeah.

27:40 >> So, I want people that are going to

27:42 commit and invest in themselves.

27:46 Look, I I think if we're in this

27:47 business of consulting, we better

27:49 believe we're pretty damn good at what

27:51 we do. And I I've been doing it for 36

27:54 years. I've either fooled a lot of

27:56 people

27:57 or I'm really lucky or I'm good.

28:00 I don't know which one some days.

28:02 >> I 36 years is a a long time for a hot

28:04 streak of luck.

28:06 You got to assume

28:08 something else going on there.

28:09 >> Thank you. I'll take it.

28:11 Um but, it's um

28:14 I I service is the best prospecting tool

28:17 ever.

28:18 >> Mhm.

28:18 >> And so, when we don't commit to

28:20 prospecting, we're forced to make all

28:23 those cold calls where we get ghosted

28:25 and sales cycles take forever and people

28:27 don't trust because you sound like

28:29 everybody else and

28:31 you're like, "Wow, why is everybody low

28:33 price?" Because no one told them he's

28:35 worth it.

28:36 >> Yeah.

28:37 >> And And when we do business on that

28:39 relationship value that creates

28:41 referrals, people say, "Yeah, it was a

28:42 lot of money, but it made a huge

28:44 impact."

28:45 >> Yeah.

28:46 >> When someone other than you says you're

28:48 worth it, it tends to carry a lot of

28:50 weight.

28:51 So, um

28:52 I I just find

28:54 we're all backwards. Whatever you think

28:56 you should say, probably don't. When you

28:58 think you should scream, you should

28:59 whisper.

29:00 Uh instead of pushing,

29:03 you should fall back. Um it makes life a

29:07 lot easier when you don't kind of build

29:09 this ball of frustration and stress

29:12 trying to make people do things that

29:14 they don't really want to do or you

29:16 haven't made it comfortable for them to

29:18 do it.

29:19 >> Yeah.

29:19 >> Um so, I I I would rather

29:23 fail nine times

29:26 for the right reasons

29:28 >> Yeah.

29:28 >> than get nine yeses with the wrong

29:31 people.

29:33 And I'll I'll make money off of the

29:35 connection I make with that one person

29:37 because their value

29:39 expanded over a lifetime

29:42 uh

29:43 that's I can trace

29:46 uh

29:47 90% of my business to four relationships

29:50 in my life or professionally.

29:52 >> Wow.

29:54 >> And it's just this four enormous

29:56 referral trees that have um keep

29:59 dropping fruit into my life.

30:02 >> Mhm.

30:02 >> So, I I I'm watching that clock.

30:06 >> We did hit the half hour mark and I do

30:08 want to start getting done.

30:10 >> Yeah, but

30:11 you know, if I was rude and said, "Hey,

30:14 can we We were going to talk about

30:16 referrals, but we got on this getting

30:18 people to call us back stuff." I don't

30:21 want to short shrift anybody that's

30:23 willing to listen to this. Can we

30:24 schedule part two?

30:26 >> Let's schedule part two. Before we do

30:28 that, I got to ask you one question now

30:30 before you So, now

30:32 So, if I'm listening in

30:33 and I've listened to the first half, so

30:35 I've listened to part one and I'm

30:37 getting set for part two, but between

30:38 now and part two, what's like the one

30:41 thing that if they listen in, make sure

30:42 that I start applying this to their

30:43 business while they're waiting to get

30:45 part two, which is the more exciting

30:47 referral one which you were just talking

30:48 about?

30:49 >> Yeah, it's um

30:52 um

30:53 you have to have you got to tell

30:55 yourself the truth.

30:57 And so um I I think that one, the truth

31:02 is

31:04 don't get into business to get your

31:05 emotional needs met and that's why

31:07 people who

31:08 >> Yeah.

31:09 >> become emotionally addicted to getting

31:10 yeses turn into horrible sales people.

31:13 Most of them I've met some people that

31:15 are enormously powerful and successful

31:18 because they hate to lose.

31:20 Um but very very small percentage can

31:23 ride that boat. Um understand that no is

31:27 not failure, it's just part of the

31:28 bigger process. So if you release

31:31 yourself from the pressure of having to

31:33 close everyone

31:36 to a yes

31:37 and you allow them to say this is what

31:39 it would take to do business with me

31:41 the chances of getting that test an A on

31:44 the test goes up when they tell you what

31:45 the answers are.

31:47 >> Mhm.

31:47 >> And so

31:49 punctuation mark in all phases of

31:51 business development it's not

31:53 exclamation points, it's not periods,

31:55 it's almost always most effective as

31:57 question marks.

31:59 And I I think that's something

32:01 ask people

32:03 why would we talk why should we talk

32:05 what's going on that you're interested

32:07 in talking to me? If someone had the

32:10 answers, what is it that you'd be

32:11 looking for and how could they help you?

32:14 Let people in a way sell it back to you.

32:18 Um I I think that's really big.

32:20 >> Yeah.

32:21 >> Um

32:21 it takes the I don't I'm 70, I don't

32:25 want to carry that much weight on my

32:26 back anymore.

32:27 >> Yeah, that's great. But try I appreciate

32:29 I appreciate the deep dive and the

32:31 thorough explanation that causes need a

32:33 part two. But I I that's way better to

32:36 to take time on it than to try to rush

32:38 through it. So, I'm excited for part

32:39 two, but thank you so much for part one

32:41 today.

32:42 >> And um and before I leave, I

32:46 I

32:47 whoever listens to this,

32:49 if there's any way they can get my

32:51 contact information when you put this

32:53 out there, I'll take a free consultation

32:55 time with anybody that's listened to you

32:58 and Top Sale or Tailwind

33:02 uh podcast, I'm more than happy to spend

33:04 some time and share some information and

33:06 help people.

33:07 >> Sounds good.

33:08 >> I'm free of charge.

33:09 >> Perfect. Thank you.

33:10 >> a time limit, so.

33:12 All right. It's great to see you. Thank

33:14 you and have a great weekend.

33:16 >> You as well, Charlie.

33:16 >> All right. Bye-bye.

33:18 >> Bye.