Scott Bailey on Sales Process, Getting Unghosted, and Going for the No

Transcript

0:03 All right, we have another episode of Tailwind. Today we're joined by Scott Bailey. Scott, tell us a little bit more about yourself. Well, I'm Scott Bailey

0:10 with Sandler Training based here in Irvine, California since 1994.

0:15 And uh I was exposed to Sandler as a medical sales rep. Um like most salespeople, I didn't plan on getting

0:22 into sales. It's seems to be a default career. Go ask any little seven-year-old boy or girl what they want to be when they grow up. They're not likely going

0:30 to say salesperson. Might be astronaut or actor or doctor, lawyer, Indian chief, something like that.

0:36 Y, but I was majoring in biology and uh when my plans to go to optometry school didn't pan out because we didn't have

0:44 any money, I decided to quote unquote try sales uh to pay for my way into optometry school. It turned out I was

0:52 pretty good at it. But back back then medical companies were hiring biology majors because we could talk to doctors.

0:59 Business business majors didn't do very well. They would get get intimidated with the language. But I I've took off with it and uh was in the artificial

1:08 kidney business for many years. And at 20 years in the business, I was burned out and tired even though I was the number one salesperson out of 30.

1:16 secretly I was trying to look for something else to do but I had many years left before retirement and decided

1:23 decided to go through a transformation and I'd heard about the Sandler selling system as as the best kept secret in sales training which attracted me to it.

1:31 So I enrolled in in the gentleman's program and in six months of uh attending his training which we called president's club it's recurring training

1:40 I saw a uh 30% increase in sales uh with half the work. So this is pretty cool stuff. Yeah.

1:46 So I uh flew back and met David Sandler in April of 1994 and his team and uh opened my practice that that August of

1:55 uh 1994 continuously doing business in Irvine ever since helping lots of people, lots of companies um have a

2:03 sales process instead of just winging it all the time, which is what I was a victim of. If if you if you uh if you

2:10 work hard at sales, you it'll get you so far at some point. You can't work any harder than you are. And that's where I found myself. I had to have a system

2:19 that got me to work smart and and not hard.

2:22 Well, I mean, I say kudos to you were the top salesperson and you didn't have a system yet and you were winging it and still getting a ton of results.

2:30 Even though I was the best salesperson that year for the company, I I could be a lot better. And u the Sandler coach that that I work with proved to me it was

2:38 costing me a lot of money to not have a system. And it's it's strange how most sales people don't really have a system uh at all. It's it's it's seat of the

2:47 pants or winging it as we call it. Let's get out there and spew as much information as you can and every salesperson knows the ABC rule.

2:55 Always be closing, right?

2:57 Problem is prospects know that we know that and have developed a defense mechanism against it. uh salespeople are

3:04 always asking for a yes and settling for an I want to think it over which they take as a a yes in the future when actually our data could prove that

3:12 they're most of the time almost all the time nos. So the Sandler selling system is based upon what we call a pattern

3:19 interrupt. It's breaking the pattern. So instead of closing for a yes at the end of a presentation, we close for a no at the beginning of a presentation. Austin

3:28 will be meeting together today for an hour at the end of the hour. or you and I may determine we don't have a fit here and if that's fine just tell me it's not

3:35 a fit and I'll move on. So we go for the no upfront which is refreshing for the prospect. The prospect David Sandler said always had the right to tell us no.

3:45 We just never never give him permission to do it. So if we if we close for a no, we're going to remove all the defects of the think it overs and get closer to a

3:54 yes or some kind of clear next step uh of of getting the business. Most of my clients are not in a one call close.

4:00 It's a multiple enterprise level and they need something called an upfront contract to go from one sale to the next

4:07 and until they it leads to the when the check clears. Yeah.

4:11 All of Sandler's techniques take a little time to learn.

4:14 Uh but that's the bonus of it is most sales people don't want to don't want to work at it. They just want to get out in front of people and you know what I call

4:22 spray and prey. and when when they're tired of doing that, you know, maybe maybe the Sandler selling system and a sales coach could could help out.

4:31 So, you know, we were talking before we started recording about getting ghosted or getting ungoed. You know, that would you just say a pattern disrupt and the going for the no is part of that

4:40 process. Can you do you mind expanding a little bit on that?

4:42 Well, first of all, what the probably the major cause of being ghosted is assuming the prospect, you know, they told you they've told you yes, but it's it's what we call a compliant yes.

4:53 salespeople say something like, "At the end of our meeting, you'll tell me yes or no, won't you?" And and what a prospect will do is they'll agree to

5:00 that just to kind of get rid of you, right? They just want to get rid of you.

5:04 They don't like that. So, our our methodology would be at the end of our meeting, we could determine we're not a fit. We could determine we don't go together or we do go together. Mr.

5:14 Prospect, in your mind, what would that look like? Ask your prospect what the next step would be. Don't tell them they've got to tell you yes or no

5:21 because they will agree with you only to it's called a a it's called a uh I forget what the name of it is some kind

5:27 of a it's a conditional yes only to make it you go away and these are the people that don't return your voicemails.

5:34 Also we want to we want to approach every sales call as if we have the winning lottery ticket in our pocket like we don't need to make the sale um the what we call equal business stature.

5:45 And third, we want to use a post sale if we feel like we're about to be ghost.

5:49 So, I'll demonstrate one here. Austin, I understand we have a a meeting next Friday set up uh over over Zoom. I've

5:57 sent you a link. Uh please please respond that you have the link and then you might bring it up. In the Sandler

6:05 selling system, we have a rule that goes like this. If you feel it, say it but gently. So, I might say something like, "Austin, do you know what ghosting is?

6:15 Yeah. Yes, I do. Have you ever been ghosted? I have, unfortunately. How did it make you feel? Not great.

6:23 So, that's not going to happen between us, right?

6:26 Well, now I feel terrible if I did after acknowledging that.

6:29 Yeah, that's a post cell. It's a post cell. It's it's raising the difficult topic and and getting it on the table and have

6:37 an adult conversation about it. It's what it is.

6:40 That's that's a postell that that made me a lot of money.

6:44 uh in my sales career because what was happening is I'd be successful getting a a new piece of business only to have the

6:51 incumbent come back within 24 hours and take the business back. And I that's that was the flaw in my system when I

6:58 started postelling. I didn't have any uh any of those issues with the client going back to the competition. It was solid, right?

7:06 So use a postell and any commitment that you get from a prospect and uh make sure that it's going to happen. make sure that they're serious about it. So, it's

7:15 closing for a no, having equal business stature, and using a post sale if you feel you need one.

7:22 Now, for somebody who, let's say, either, you know, wasn't aware of this or forgot to do it. You people are human, they make mistakes, uh, and they

7:30 want to get ungoed, do you have any recommendations on, you know, strategies to make that happen?

7:35 We got a great unhosting technique and it's so simple, it's just ridiculous.

7:40 Yeah. So, if if you if you're ghosting me right now, I'm going to send you an email and all I'm going to say in the subject matter line is Austin, are you

7:50 okay? With a question mark and send it just like that because what what what's happening here is I want to make you

7:58 think that I believe something bad has happened to you.

8:02 And we're getting 80 to 90% response rates with that. That's what our clients are telling us. people are getting back to you because they don't want to feel

8:09 like like uh something's bad's happened to them. People believe that. Yeah.

8:13 So, you get six pages of emails back from them. Oh, I've been really busy.

8:17 I'm really sorry. So, that's a technique we're finding that's working. Again, it's are you okay? You you'll be tempted to write much more in your Just don't

8:25 keep it simple. Are you okay? And send it. And probably within half an hour, you'll get a response.

8:32 Yeah. If you're dealing with a real human being, somebody that with with feelings, well, at some point it's like, hey, if

8:39 you send that and you don't hear anything back, that's just done. That is their no. It's implied. You don't have to worry about figuring out if it's

8:46 worth following up. Just go on to the next thing, right? And my formula is no does not equal never. It just means not now. And and you have to have some kind

8:55 of a automated system like email system, what I would call commonly called drip marketing. put put those prospects in

9:03 your drip marketing campaign because you want to be top of- mind awareness. Maybe maybe it's not the right fit right now because of whatever reason, the economy

9:11 or the competition, what whatever it is, it's just not the right fit. It doesn't mean that in the future it's not going to be a fit. Just don't waste any time

9:19 on it. I want you I want you to go out there and get the nos as fast as you can because the more nos you gather, the closer you are, the closer you are getting to a yes. That's just a fact.

9:29 Yeah.

9:30 So what we really what we what we really have to deal with and most sales people could say, "Oh, I could do that." But they can't execute it because they've

9:38 they've taken no as a negative thing. So we got to deal with a lot of what Sandler calls the head trash around going for the no and the feeling of

9:45 rejection. And it always gets back to uh you're probably familiar with the success triangle that Sandler talks about. Um you know the three elements of

9:53 the success triangle is up at the top would be your attitude. your attitude about, you know, prospecting, your attitude about going for the no. Um, I

10:02 like to have salespeople think, hey, I've got the winning lottery ticket in my pocket. It starts with the right attitude. Yeah.

10:09 Then your behavior, which is what you're doing. Attitudes, how you're feeling, and your outlook about many different things. Your behavior is the the number

10:18 of dials you're making, the networking groups you go to, all the different things salespeople need to do. There's about seven things I do on a daily basis

10:26 to move my pipeline along. And then there's techniques. So attitudes, behaviors, and techniques. And all of the Sandler techniques are based on what what I mentioned is pattern interrupt.

10:36 Literally the opposite of what the other guy's doing. Because as soon as you look or sound like a salesperson, you

10:43 generally trigger a lot of friction and um resistance in a buyer. Buyers are made to be resistant basically because

10:51 of poor salespeople. Nobody likes to be sold, but everybody loves to buy. So, the key to using Sandler is to never look like a salesperson.

10:59 Yeah, that creates a lot of trust and uh trust will carry you a long way in a sales process. Will, it really will. You can

11:08 you can you don't have to be perfect Sandler execution if you have trust in place. That's why most sales people

11:15 prefer referrals to cold calls, right? I would much rather, you know, contact somebody who's been referred to me than,

11:23 you know, pick up the phone and call a stranger. My odds of closing or Yeah.

11:27 Everybody more effective. Yeah. It's 100% more effective. Yeah.

11:30 Yeah. So, you know, one of the things with, you know, disqualifying, I think it's always easier if you have multiple opportunities that you're able to work

11:38 instead of being like, well, this is my one. If it doesn't work, I'm sitting there stranded on my own. Uh so you know you have to be out there prospecting and continue to you know generate leads for

11:47 your pipeline to continue to keep it full. Um now when we think about like these you know pattern interrupts and uh the ghosting techniques to stop it from

11:55 happening. How would you apply that to like when you're doing your prospecting direct like as part of like the direct prospecting? Like is there a postell I

12:03 should be doing after I get an agreement with somebody on a phone call or how would I navigate? here. I I start all my

12:10 clients in a two-day uh impact training boot camps we call them where I've taken Sandler I've compressed it down into two

12:16 days. Sandler A to Z and I give them seven things to do one a day. If you do these seven things one a day and I don't

12:25 care what order they're in. Uh and one of the one of the elements in there is on some of the techniques I want you to take your oldest leads your oldest leads

12:34 possible and practice on them. Those are the people you're going to practice the new techniques on because it's it's a low risk, right? The odds are the older

12:43 the lead, the less chance that you're going to that it's a good lead. That's a solid lead. So, these are the people we practice on, right? Pull pull out. We

12:52 have a technique called stripping line, which is going negative and where we ask for the no. Hey, Austin, I noticed you've been in our database for 16

13:00 years. Uh we've got a new contact management system. uh we're curious whether or not we should keep you in the system or not and ask for a no and if I

13:09 get a no I'm going to find out why it's a no and so on and so forth. So you practice in lowrisk situations develop develop some confidence with the system.

13:19 That's what I recommend. It's like learning a new language. You know you're not going to be fluent in something. Um, and we're finding that it takes four to

13:27 six months for people to really get the benefit of Sandler. After after the two-day boot camp that that we we put

13:33 you through, we we work with you for an hour and a half a week every Tuesday. We train and we do that on Zoom. So, the

13:41 client only has to come in person one time or two days and then all the support is given on Zoom. And that's what's working for us. And we tell the,

13:50 you know, average clients, it's going to take six months to get your investment back. And they get that. They realize it's it's work. You got to put the time.

13:59 You could practice with us or you could practice on your clients. It's your pick.

14:03 It's more expensive to practice on your customers, right?

14:07 I I love this uh practice on the people who have been in your database for a while because, you know, that's such a great way to get, you know, the human

14:14 rep. and I actually do that and you know I totally understand the AI stuff and I understand like role playing and I think there's totally a place for it but I

14:23 still feel like there's still that game time like I I'm in the game I actually need to talk to a person be nervous about it you know I'm talking to my coach maybe I'm nervous because I'm

14:32 talking in front of other people or talking to AI I'm not nervous because it's like well this isn't a deal on the other end but then being able to apply that to a real live person and then be

14:41 like you know what I'm going to fumble this I'm going to make mistakes for six months But now it's not going to hurt me because I'm actually getting like, you know, high quality reps with low risk.

14:50 That's so such a great way to think about it.

14:52 I I remember this one client I worked with many years ago who had the biggest fear of cold calling I've ever wor. He was so afraid to cold call.

15:00 But what I had him do, and it worked, is he would call the the prospect and say, "Hi, Austin. This is Gabriel.

15:08 I really hate cold calling. I'm afraid to do this." And the last two people I called hung up on me. What are you going to do? Nobody hung up on him. Yeah.

15:16 So again, pattern interrupt. If Austin, this is a cold call. Before you hang up, can I tell you the purpose of my call and I'll let you determine if we should speak further.

15:25 Yeah.

15:25 If it's a cold call, say it's a cold call.

15:28 That's the pattern interrupt. Sales people don't say that.

15:30 They they say, "How are you today?" H A YT. We call those hate crimes. H A Y T.

15:37 How are you today? That's that's telegraphing that you're trying to sell them something, right?

15:42 Yeah. Anytime somebody opens with that, when I get a cold call, I'm like, "What do you want from me?" Like, "Just tell me. Just I don't mind that you're calling me and you want something from

15:49 me. Maybe I'll It's a cold call. It's a cold call. Can you give me 30 seconds and I'll maybe maybe we should determine uh it's not a fit

15:58 and I'll move on." That's just that simple. The Sandler techniques are ridiculously simple. I'm not saying they're easy

16:06 because they go they're counterintuitive to what we're currently doing. And that again, that's the benefit of it because most sales people don't want to work

16:12 this hard. They don't they would just rather make more calls rather than practice on their customers rather than

16:20 pulling back and taking an hour and a half a week to practice. I mean, what's who can't find 90 minutes a week to practice and get better and make make

16:28 those when you do have a live client or potential client on the line, it's more effective. So,

16:35 yeah, definitely. Um and then for uh so you get that you get the permission to give you know the reason for your call

16:43 you give the reason right we can you know very sailor 30 second commercial you get them interested you know how are you apply what are some ways that people

16:51 can think about or apply not getting ghosted after they've gotten that commitment uh to a yes with that conversation

16:58 well again I think the post cell you know bring it up saying you know I've been the last couple people I booked a meeting with ghosted me or didn't show up.

17:07 Yeah.

17:07 Is that going to happen between us? You have to do this stuff, but you have to do it in a nurturing way. You don't want to call them out on it. Just say, "Hey, this is difficult to talk about.

17:16 Just want to make sure you really want to do this." And you know, sometimes I get ghosted.

17:21 That's not going to happen to us in this situation, is it?

17:24 Usually the prospect will say, "No way." And you you're not going to get ghosted if they say they're not going to ghost you, right? They can't. Unless something bad has happened, then you can send them the are you okay?

17:35 Exactly. Yeah.

17:36 Yeah. That becomes like a the perfect way to say it because like, well, you just told me that you weren't gonna ghost me, so now I'm worried about you even though we're strangers. Like, make I want to make sure you're okay.

17:46 I wonder if that's a real word. Ungoed. I think it is.

17:49 It Well, if it's not in the Webster dictionary, it's everyone knows what it is for sure. Sandler. It's in the Sandler lexicon. So, there you go.

17:57 So, I'm I'm a big proponent of the Sandler rules and and when when my client there's about a hundred of them. I don't know if you know, no

18:04 mind reading, don't spill your candy in the lab. You're familiar with these. So, what I focus Yeah.

18:10 I'm I'm a big rules Nazi, I guess, to use a word. I I just think they're important. I mean, how could you become an accountant if you didn't know math

18:19 and I think the Sandler system, the rules and the concepts is what I really really feature with people because you got to learn them at some point if you

18:27 want to get better or you're going to hit a you're going to hit hit a block.

18:31 And uh I also I also am a big proponent of the leadership of of the company that we're training. In fact, it's required that

18:39 the leaders be involved in the program with their salespeople because salespeople are going to how should I

18:47 say this? As as they progress through the system and we're looking for transformation, which is truly trans transformative. If you've had Sandler

18:55 training, you know what I'm talking about. And that transformation is coming at you. You do one of two things. You either transform and you change or you

19:03 get scared and run. And what that sounds like is, "Oh, those Sandler guys don't know what they're talking about. They don't know our business or they're

19:10 always talking about the upfront contract or it doesn't work in Orange County and all this stuff that they that's excuse making. That's that's a

19:19 sign that they're being afraid of change. So that's why we got to have the leaders in the program to back us up because if a leader's hearing all this

19:27 negative stuff and not attending the training, then it's the the system's doomed to failure. After four to six months, we're going to lose you because

19:35 you're So I I really do demand that the the leaders, people writing a check, come to training and and see what what

19:42 our message is. as good of the things they're telling them, we're telling them something different and they have to know in what context we're telling them that like you're calling customers and

19:50 asking for a no. I don't believe in that. So they got to understand the principles behind Yeah.

19:55 behind the system. So makes sense. I mean it to your point it takes four to six months for them to fully gain the benefits. That's a long

20:03 time for any human being to wait to to get start getting the rewards of it and then pile on top the fact that many

20:10 professional sellers have a three, six, nine year long, you know, uh, you know, sales cycle.

20:17 So, it's like, hey, I'm I'm not going to see the fruits of my labor until like the end of the year anyhow. So, even when I start getting better, what I can

20:25 attribute to the Sandler system, if it takes me six months on a regular deal, is probably going to take me about couple months to get comfortable with it

20:33 and then 6 months for the first deal to close. And it's a lot of waiting to figure out, is this actually working for me? And that's where, you know, I

20:40 totally agree. Leadership has to be there to be like, no, this is the process. We understand, but look at these KPIs and look at these KPIs and we're staying patient knowing that that's what this is going to look like.

20:50 Um, it's it's a lot to navigate and to have somebody have to do it on their own. I mean, it's just it's asking too much.

20:56 Here's what I tell people. I see. You can't teach religion to the family by dropping the kids off at church while you and mom go get a bloody mary at the sports bar. Right.

21:04 Yeah. As fun as that sounds.

21:06 Hey kids, we'll see you in a couple hours. Go get religion. It does not work. So, if if you look at Sandler, like we're changing behaviors,

21:14 attitudes, techniques. Like I mentioned, if you think of it, a good analogy would be learning a brand new language. And I'm I'm guessing you don't speak Russian. I don't know. Just take Okay.

21:24 All right.

21:25 Good guess. Good guess. Le let's say you wanted to learn to speak Russian. You you might attend a two-day training on it and you'd learn 300

21:32 words. You could please say please and thank you. Basic stuff. And you'd forget it if you didn't practice it. So after

21:39 after the initial training you would want to become conversational in Russian which means you'd have to do it

21:46 regularly. Now become to become fluent in Russian that's a whole another level just like becoming fluent in Sandler it

21:54 takes time but we tell people that they'll be conversational in Sandler in four to six months. They're not going to be fluent. They couldn't stand up in the

22:02 room and deliver it and train it. But but they would uh they would definitely uh see the benefit of it become becoming

22:10 conversational and it's still they're still going to pop back into their old ways under certain pressure situations.

22:16 So again, it's a it's a good case for practicing under lowrisk situations. Go tackle a prospect that's very difficult.

22:24 Um you know, been thinking it over for a long time. Practice on these people. The older the better and and take it seriously. You know,

22:32 this is your training. this is your you're working on yourself and we find that people they don't just change as a uh a salesperson they change it improves

22:40 their lives because the Sandler selling system in its essence is really a communication system you you would know that being in the program

22:47 makes you a better communicator with your family with with your cohorts your peers um and your life within your company makes you a better communicator

22:56 that was a genius of David Sandler he studied psychology and applied it to a sales process As far as I know, it's the

23:03 first one that's ever there's actually science of why the system works.

23:09 Yeah. So, I'm I'm about six months into my journey, maybe a little bit more.

23:13 Definitely know that I'm on a journey. I don't feel completed with it. What What would you say is the next milestone when you become beyond conversational? And how long does that usually take?

23:23 You know, that's a great question, but honestly, it's how hard you're going to work at it. It's it's like the frequency and and setting little goals. uh doing a

23:32 pre-call plan and a post call debrief, I call it a twominut, two-minute drill.

23:38 So many of the issues that Sandler of the problems caused in in sales is traditional sales is resolved when we

23:46 have a good upfront contract. I believe that if we have if you look at the first three steps of the system, which is building rapport and trust, that's going

23:53 to carry a long way. You don't have to be perfect at the system. and a nicely executed upfront contract with an outcome step discussed. At the end of

24:02 the meeting, we can determine we're not a fit or what kind of fit we might have.

24:06 And that's the link to the pain step and getting permission to ask questions. So, a so much of that is embodied in those

24:13 first three steps with the with the upfront contract being that your GPS the upfront contract if you don't get

24:20 permission to ask questions, what kind of a painst you going to have?

24:24 Not a very good one. So Austin, I'm going to be asking you some questions.

24:28 If I ask you a question that in any way makes you uncomfortable or offends you or you don't understand, just stop me and I won't ask it. So Sandler is a

24:36 permissionbased system. I just got permission to find your pain. I I have I make the claim that the first three steps of the system, bonding and

24:45 rapport, a front contract, and pain is 85% of the sale. Okay? If you nail those and then the budget step and the

24:54 decision step, everything becomes easier as we move through the system. But you really got to focus on those first three steps.

25:01 However you however you build trust, some kind of crafted upfront contract, agree to agree to an outcome questions.

25:10 Also bring up what I call the biggest fear. If there's an objection looming, this is the time to bring it up in the upfront contract. Hey, can I bring up

25:16 something that's awkward, difficult? And in my case, I always had that conversation about the time. You know,

25:24 training takes time and everybody's busy. Our training is at such and such a time on a Tuesday. Everybody's, "Oh, don't you have it at a different time?"

25:32 No, this is when the training is. This is when you go. We're not moving the training around for your convenience.

25:38 This is when the training is. You have to carve out time to attend.

25:42 Yeah. Since we're talking about training, we we ask people to turn their cameras on when we're doing Zoom training. Uh be engaged and ask

25:51 questions. And if you happen to be driving a car, we won't let you in. You know, you have to be engaged to to be involved. Be trainable. Like I

26:00 said, uh well, speaking of upfront contract, we mentioned at the beginning of this recording that we'd stop the half hour mark, so we're there. Uh before we sign

26:08 off, if you don't mind, do you have any final parting thoughts for anyone listening in on this one?

26:14 Geez, there's so many thoughts. If if you're if you're in professional sales and even, you know, think about if

26:21 you're a a trusted adviser like a financial planner or a CPA trying to make partner in your firm. These are all selling kind of situations.

26:32 Get a hold of a Sandler trainer. If it's not me, there's might be one in your marketplace. it probably is. We have like 300 offices globally. They're not

26:40 far away. And get some help. You'll see the return come back directly proportional to your the amount of work that you put in into it. So, I think

26:49 everybody at some levels in sales, right? Yes.

26:53 I'll I'll have attorneys say, "I'm not a salesperson." They say, "So, you've never sold a jury? That's different." It's not different. It's it's all

27:00 selling. You know, we all if you're gonna be a partner at a law firm, you're your job is to be a salesperson at that point. You're we partner by bringing in new clients.

27:11 Yeah, that's my, you know, we help that's those types of people make great clients for us because they they'll come in and they'll take it very seriously.

27:20 And if you're a corporate client, understand that Sandler is not an inexpensive investment. that's costs money and appreciate the fact that your your company's paying for your training.

27:31 I'm proud to say we're getting so many people these days under 30 coming through the system, even under 25 right out of college.

27:38 And uh I would say the only disadvantage of Sandler is what everybody says, I wish I was younger when I learned this stuff. This is the right way to do it.

27:47 So appreciate you having me aboard.

27:49 Yeah, Scott, that was wonderful. I really appreciate you taking the