Tim Goering on AI, Trust, and Human Sales Conversations

Transcript

0:03 Okay. So, you know, as we were saying, uh, you know, with AI and your thoughts on the trend right now, tell me more about where you think it's going.

0:12 Yeah.

0:12 I think it's just like one more thing in history, quite frankly. I mean, the if you go all the way back to the beginning of time, new inventions came along and

0:20 everybody thought, "Oh, no. I'm not going to be here anymore." Right? When I was a kid, it was robots. We thought robots were going to take over the

0:27 world. And my belief is this. Um, AI is never going to replace humans, but

0:34 humans that do not use AI are gonna 100% be replaced. Reminds me I was like in like third grade and they're telling me to memorize my multiplication tables.

0:45 Like, it's not like you're going to have a calculator in your pocket everywhere you go. I'm like, what?

0:50 And now I have a supercomput in my pocket everywhere I go.

0:52 Check it out. I could go to the moon with this. Right. But and that's that's really what I'm thinking is that AI can

0:59 write your resume, AI can write your cover letter, and AI can do all your marketing. Why would you ever buy

1:06 anything of substance? Why would you ever hire somebody? Why would you ever go to work for somebody until you meet human?

1:14 And that's what I think, especially in sales, I think the trades are bulletproof because you got to do the work. And I think sales is bulletproof

1:21 because if you can't communicate with another human being, then why would you trust them?

1:28 And and I I uh a friend of mine uh I was doing some work on veteran suicide

1:36 quote and I thought this the quote is in the upper leftand corner. This is from like the 1780s. John Paul Jones was like the

1:44 father of naval warfare. And what he said is men mean more than guns in the rating of a ship. And what they were debating was you can have the coolest

1:52 cannons in the world. If you don't have capable sailors that can navigate and position the ships to fire those guns, those guns don't matter.

2:00 Yeah.

2:00 And I think of that the same thing about the AI to the upper right hand corner.

2:05 Right. In a world of AI, people are always going to mean more. that those are tools that's going to give you a head start. You can think about, hey,

2:14 what challenges would a client have to have to make my features of benefit to them and then you can plug that into

2:22 your 30 secondond commercial. Quit telling people what you do. Find out why they need what you do and then deliver that. And AI can help you with that.

2:31 You can literally type in a prompt, right? what challenges would somebody have to have to need insurance, to need, I don't know, sustainable electricity,

2:40 you know, it doesn't matter. And so that's the neat thing is I really do believe that the future looks bright.

2:47 I mean, the one thing that I always come back to with the conversation especially around like AI and sales is just the trust factor. Um, I'm curious how you

2:56 see that playing out and like what that really means in that because I have my whole I can go on a diet tribe about it, but would rather hear what you think about how trust plays into that uh equation.

3:06 Have you ever seen the trust equation from the the book the trusted advisor?

3:11 No, actually I'd love to. Yeah, I'm a knowledge hoarder. Yeah, that's perfect.

3:17 You got to be careful with me. I got I got a little something for something for everything because I love other people's ideas. This is the trust formula.

3:25 To be trustworthy, you got to be credible and reliable and intimate. And that's about communication. That's what AI isn't. It might be credible, but it's

3:33 certainly not reliable yet. And there is no intimacy. I mean, I don't know. I I take cold calls because I'm in sales.

3:41 So, when I answer the phone, I'm like, "Hey, you're doing a pretty good job. I don't suppose you guys have a training department." And I try to reverse sell

3:48 them because I think that's fun. But that's in the numerator. So, in all fractions, there's a numerator up top and there's a denominator down below.

3:57 And what that denominator is is self-orientation.

4:00 And that's kind of what I was going into a second ago when I was talking about using chat GPT to find their challenges before you start talking about all your cool features and benefits.

4:10 Yeah.

4:11 You know, the uh the the the joke that I've been using lately about it is when I learned the Hinduk maneuver when I was

4:17 a kid, I couldn't wait to use it. But if you do the himlic maneuver on somebody that's coughing, they're going to be mad at you. If you do the Heimlick maneuver

4:26 on somebody who's choking, they're going to be grateful that you saved their life.

4:30 And the the equivalent there is quit trying to sell things to people until they admit they need it. And back to that trust formula, you've got to have

4:39 you got to make your self-orientation very low. You got to be high in credibility, high in reliability, high

4:46 in intimacy. You're listening and you're acknowledging and you're clarifying and low on self-orientation. It's not about me.

4:55 Sales can be missionary work. It doesn't have to be mercenary work. So mercenaries kill to get their way.

5:01 Missionaries go around the world looking for people that need what they have and then they go and get it and bring it to them. It could be altruistic this sales thing.

5:09 Yeah. I think uh I like that um that equation a lot because I think that intimacy part is like pretty untouchable from the AI perspective and yet so

5:18 important and so incredibly important like you can't just like delete that and have it be part of the equation. Um I mean the thing that drives me the most

5:26 insane is like talking to like you're using Chad GBT or Quad or whatever and it like tries to be like oh I understand your frustration. I'm like you don't

5:34 understand my frustration that's so empty. Like that's such like a programmed response. You're a machine. You don't I don't want emotion from you.

5:41 I want results. And I think you can fix a bunch of that stuff in Chad GBT, but you can never replace that intimacy part.

5:48 I love that you said that cuz I understand is one of my cuss words, right? I tell people, don't say that to people, right? Like I tell you, hey, my

5:56 mom just got put into a nursing home and it's been horrible. And they're like, oh, I get it. We had to put my mom in.

6:00 Like, do you understand? Right? My mom's been in a wheelchair for 40 years. She's got multiple sces. You don't understand. Can you even ask me any questions?

6:08 Yeah.

6:09 And I think it's very um it's a supposition that can really compromise equal business stature. Same thing with the word help.

6:17 Everybody's website says, even Chat GBT, they do it all the time. We help people with this, we help people with that. Yeah.

6:24 And I tell people all the time, you know, there's got to be a better thing to say. You think about equal business stature. As soon as I say we help you, I

6:32 took the high status and I put you in low status. Maybe not intentionally, but how about we work with people that have these challenges?

6:41 Yeah. Okay. And start with equal business stature.

6:45 Same thing with I understand. How about instead of I understand, I can't imagine what you're going through or the beginning of the pain funnel.

6:52 Hey, tell me more about that. Yeah.

6:54 Right. Let's you is there anything I can do to help? Or maybe just listen. Right.

6:59 And so start with the sincerity of that selflessness, that self-orientation. You want that denominator low. A one in the

7:08 bottom and a 15 in the top gives you a higher trustworthy component.

7:12 I'm not even that good at math. Look at me using all my equation stuff.

7:15 Yeah, it's working. It's working. Um I I think that's so uh interesting like because I'm still on my journey of uh

7:22 being a good you know Sandler seller and I assume I'll always be and you know my thought has always been like how am I making sure to keep myself or bringing

7:30 myself to equal business stature. I've not been paying attention to but also not like inflating myself above as such a good reminder to be like nope equal is

7:38 equal and you want to maintain that you need to be thinking from both perspectives. Um, and I just that had never occurred to me on like we'll focus on that part, too.

7:47 Um, but it makes a ton of sense. I mean, that's what we're going for at the end of the day.

7:52 Yeah. We can't wait to sh all over people. That's legal, by the way, cuz I said should. Like, hey, I'm going to watch Netflix tonight. Oh, you know what you should watch?

7:59 Hey, I'm going on vacation. Oh, you know what you should go? We can't wait to tell people that. And there there's a guy named uh Kenneth Graham. One of my

8:07 favorite quotes. What he said was uh the strongest human instinct is to impart information and the second strongest instinct is to resist it.

8:17 So if you want to have a conversation with another human being maybe if you start with questions so that they will do the imparting of the information and

8:25 then if you don't resist it we're having a conversation where if I start telling you Austin here's what you got to do if you want to be good at Sandler you got to do this that and the other thing. Now

8:33 I'm imparting information. It's natural for you to say but.

8:38 So I want to align those. Everybody thinks an upfront contract is just in the beginning of the conversation.

8:44 I would argue that the entire Sandler system is about aligning expectations.

8:50 We're going to align expectations about how you want me to communicate with you.

8:53 We're going to align expectations about how you think the meeting is going to go and how I think it's going to go. We're going to align expectations about your challenges and then your willingness to

9:03 invest time, money, and effort to make some adjustments. And then we're going to align expectations about how you like to make decisions, which by the way is

9:10 the best clue for DISC. If I say to you, hey, um, how do you make a big decision like this? This is the big decision. If they're like, I just decide they're a D.

9:21 I go with my gut, says the I. I analyze it, says the C. I socialize it, says the S.

9:28 If you listen after you ask that question, they'll give you clues and then I can adjust my my expectations

9:36 accordingly. And I think that's I came up with a quote that uh I use all the time and most people can't even repeat

9:43 it back. Expectations not communicated are premeditated disappointments.

9:49 In other words, Austin, you probably had some expectations about how this podcast was going to go. And I had some too.

9:56 mine where I don't have any idea what this guy's looking for. Right. But if we don't discuss those, which you did, you

10:03 told me what you were looking for. You asked me what I'd like to talk about.

10:07 And because you told me what you were looking for and you asked about mine, now we don't have that disappointment.

10:13 If we hadn't discussed this one or the other, one of us was going to be disappointed. And that's everything in life.

10:20 Yeah. So with that focus on like the alignment stuff, I mean are you is it something where it's like um just be

10:28 constantly like thinking to yourself as you're having the conversation. Do I sense any sort of drift? Is it worth trying to check in or is it like if you

10:36 start at the beginning of a conversation, end the conversation and then every conversation you continue to do that that's good enough? Like how do

10:43 you navigate this alignment um maintenance? Is that a good good word for it? I love the way you're thinking about it. I would say it's more the former than the latter in what you said.

10:53 And here's what I mean. I think that curiosity and skepticism are your best friends.

10:58 You need to be curious. Do they see it the way I see it or do they see it differently? Yeah.

11:03 And then even when they tell you, you need to be skeptical. Are they telling me the whole truth or are they sugarcoating it?

11:09 And curiosity and skeptic skepticism will keep you aware. Right? So self-awareness is important.

11:16 Self-control is important. That's hard for me. I got to listen and I got to control myself. And then I have to have

11:24 the courage to address the the the things that don't seem right. Yeah.

11:31 Right. If my spidey sense is telling me something's going wrong, then bring it up. Ask a question.

11:37 You know, I call it bringing down the temperature in the room by acknowledging and clarifying.

11:43 So in Sandler, we call it soften and reverse. But I had to like I have to translate everything into my little mamleian brain, right?

11:52 Just acknowledge it. Hey dude, thanks a lot for asking that. That's acknowledging it. Great question and good question are also acknowledging it,

11:59 but they're too normalized. And then clarify. It's okay if I ask a question about that. Or is this what you really

12:06 meant or did I miss it? And that's what I mean by alignment of expectations.

12:11 When you always acknowledge and clarify, you're aligning expectations. And I would say, man, do it everywhere.

12:18 If you have dinner with your kids, then at the end, I call it a fip win. From your perspective, what is next? It works

12:27 great in business, but it creates works great at the dinner table, too. Yeah.

12:30 And I'm like, dude, I really enjoyed this dinner. Hey, from your from your perspective, when should we do it again?

12:36 And then what they say next gives you an indication whether they enjoyed the dinner as much as you did. Yeah.

12:43 We do this every night, Dad. Yeah.

12:46 Yeah. Um I I mean my instinct is going towards you can't really over like overuse it. I

12:55 mean obviously don't do it every single sentence every single time. But it's just like it's not like you can't go into a conversation and then be like well you know I get three of these so I

13:04 better use them sparingly. It's like, all right, maybe don't do it literally constantly, but if you sprinkle it in throughout, there's really no harm in

13:11 continuing to kind of, hey, help me get on the same page with you. I know that I should probably be, you know, and then continuing to go back to that and like

13:18 not be afraid of over overusing it potentially.

13:22 Yeah. You don't want to use it as a uh you don't want to use it as a move, right? I remember when I first started Sandler, my kids would say to me, "Quit

13:30 doing it to me." I'm like, "Doing what?" and they're like, "We hear you back there in your office. You know, you got some ideas. I got some ideas. You're

13:38 allowed to hate mine as long as I can hate yours." If if they catch you doing it, then then you're using it as a like a like a

13:47 karate move. You know, when you learn karate as a kid, the first thing they tell you is you can't fight the neighbor kids anymore because it's not fair. Same

13:55 thing with this. So, I think there's a subtle way of doing it um by just being vulnerable. Vulnerability is the

14:04 ultimate expression of self-esteem. Hey, just in case I'm missing something, can I clarify? And I think it's there's um

14:13 kids do it all the time. They say, you know what I mean? You know what I mean?

14:16 And I think it's okay to say, "Hold on a second. I don't think I do know what you mean." Which is my favorite Robert

14:23 McCcluskey quote. I know you believe you understood what you thought I said, but I don't think you realize that what I said is not at all what I meant.

14:31 First time I heard David Sandler say that, it blew my mind. I looked it up. I'm like, where did he get that? Yeah.

14:36 And but everybody's been in that conversation where you're like, I don't think they understand what I'm saying.

14:41 Or sure, I'm pretty sure I have no idea what she's talking about.

14:45 So, if that's your feeling, you know, talk about it.

14:50 So, just I mean, this is one of those ones where just trust your gut on it and like, you know, go in as soon as you start being like, I think we might be talking past each other. I think I'm not following. Go for it.

15:01 And it seems like it's one of those things where, you know, with practice comes, you know, refinement and getting better at it. Uh, but you're just going

15:09 to have to kind of go through the process of, you know, exposing yourself to the vulnerability, making some mistakes, learning from them, and then continue to move forward.

15:18 Yeah. And I think self-awareness. You said trust your gut. Only trust your gut if you're a self-aware person. Yeah.

15:25 Right. Because there are some people that you can tell they're not in a werewolf, right? They just they totally have no idea how offensive they are as a human.

15:35 So for that person then how they how do they like approach that?

15:40 I think you just need to realize that probably most people default to low self-awareness and so they won't know

15:47 what you're doing when you're presenting as vulnerable. So you can hold yourself to the high standard of always aligning

15:55 expectations, but you should not expect others to adhere to that same standard.

16:00 And I think that's a safer route is just realizing that often times people don't say what they mean. The question they ask isn't the real question. The problem

16:08 they present with isn't the real problem. And you need to stay curious.

16:14 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Um gosh, I'm still kind of stuck on this uh the uh mutual or the equal business

16:23 stature part and like not going too far and the help and the understand and all that kind of stuff. Um what are some of

16:29 the other uh you know traps that you see or like common mistakes around you know

16:37 wrong language or wrong perspective and like how do you how do you kind of like now I have two red flags that I have in my head now. I understand and help with

16:44 or help not with. Um, what are some of the other ones that you see as like common traps that people should like kind of maybe like, hey, maybe I should rethink if I'm saying these words or say doing this or explaining that.

16:56 Let's stay on that one. Right. You don't want to take the high status, but you also don't want to take the low status. Yeah.

17:03 Right. So, sometimes um, you know, we were brainwashed in third grade when the teacher says, "What's 10 time 15?"

17:10 If you know the answer, you're supposed to answer. And if you don't, you're supposed to, you know, but you're not supposed to acknowledge and clarify,

17:18 right? You're not supposed to say, "Hey, thanks a lot for asking me that, teacher. There must be a reason you're asking me that right now." Right? That gets you sent to the office with Tim.

17:27 So it just like you don't want to talk down to people, it's also okay to level set so that they don't talk down to you,

17:35 right? So if you roll over and they say, "Send me something." And you say, "Yes, sir." without clarifying expectations like what exactly do you want me to send you?

17:44 When do you think you'll take a look at it? So that I don't come off as too responsive or not responsive enough. Too responsive being I'll call you every day

17:52 to see if you want it now. And not responsive enough is I don't care if you need this or not. And so I don't want to be submissive and I also don't want to

18:01 be I don't want to talk over and and run people. Yeah. It's fine line.

18:07 Yeah. Um, yeah, just had like a good first discovery meeting with somebody today and we totally by the end of it

18:14 were like this isn't a good idea. We shouldn't move forward with each other.

18:17 And it was just fun to be able to have that conversation. I could feel from his side he was waiting for me to push on him and I was like I'm not going to push

18:25 like at the end of the day what I'm asking you to do is cold outreach and you aren't going to do it and nobody's holding you responsible because you're your own business owner.

18:34 So I'm not going to hold you responsible. if you're not going to hold you responsible, you're just going to have to waste money. We're both going to be upset about the situation. What are we doing here?

18:42 And it was nice to be able to have that, you know, motion of like back and forth and just being able to go like, you know, what are our expectations of one another? And be able to align on

18:51 that and then be able to go the expectations are not are clearly pointing towards this isn't a good, you know, relationship to enter into in

18:58 moving forward, you know, as two businesses. It was really fun to be able to do that today.

19:03 You're a better man than I am. I did not figure out the meaning of the word impass until my divorce 15 years ago. Right. We just don't see eye to eye.

19:12 That's okay. Yeah.

19:13 We don't need to be mortal enemies. We can just walk away and be sound, sober, sensible professionals and keep an eye out for one another. Are you familiar with the gumball theory?

19:25 I've heard a couple ones, but tell me about the I'm not going to guess. I'm trying to do a better job with I hear you. Tell me more about it. Let me see

19:32 if we're aligned. And by the way, that's a good dopamine hit. Like, oh, but you don't you you stay curious. We used to call it dummy up, but now we're

19:40 sensitive. So, we're call it the curiosity curve. Like, ah, the gumball theory. Why not let me be the hero of the story? So, good move if that's what

19:47 you're doing. So, here's the gumball theory.

19:50 You put a quarter in and you twist the knob. And then, what's your favorite gumball?

19:54 What's your favorite color gumball, Austin? Let's go with blue.

19:58 All right. If I get a blue one, I like the greens and whites. That is a referral to Austin. That's not a qualified prospect for me. If I get a

20:06 green one or a white one, qualified prospect. We can move forward.

20:11 But anything other than green or white, if I get a blue one, there's no sense of me wishing it was white, pretending, trying to paint it blue and give it to

20:20 you or paint it green so that I can enjoy the spearmint flavor. So, we just call it the wrong color gumball. Ask the questions and if it's the wrong color

20:28 gumball, refer it or give it away or throw it away. Nobody likes this. I thought nobody liked the blue ones, but apparently somebody does. So now I got somebody to refer blue ones to.

20:38 I got Yeah. All your blue ones can come this direction. You know what's great about this is that I was not thinking of that theory when you said it. So I'm glad I didn't say anything. I just

20:46 pushed it right back in your direction and said, "Nope, let's keep going your way." That's perfect.

20:50 That's the value of always trying to find out other people's ideas first.

20:54 Yeah. Because if their ideas are the same as yours, you can still you can say you're a genius and give them the dopamine hit.

21:01 And if they're not the same as yours, you can say, "Hey, uh, would you be open to another point of view on that?" Which, by the way, is one of the two

21:10 most powerful questions in the history of mankind because it's really hard to say, "Nope, I would not be open-minded to another point of view."

21:17 Yeah. Right. Well, and better yet, uh, the the gumball theory I was thinking of that I had heard of, not as relevant as the one

21:26 that you had. So, totally not good for the conversation.

21:29 I want to hear it now. There's another gumball theory.

21:32 Well, it's basically like um the fancy word is like path determiny. So, like if you have uh a a bucket full of gumballs

21:41 and uh you pull out, you know, this has red blue gumballs and white gumballs.

21:46 You pull out a blue gumball, then you put two blue gumballs back in. And then you reach in again and you pull one out.

21:54 And if you pull out a white, you put in two. But if you pull out another blue, you put in two. But basically what happens within the first 10 pools, usually what happens is uh the rest it

22:03 becomes so overloaded with blue gumballs that you just keep pulling blue gumballs and it becomes a blue gumball bowl with like a couple whites in there here or

22:11 there, but there's so few whites in there uh that you can no longer pull the whites because there's just overload with blues. And it's basically saying

22:18 like within like the first 10, you're going to figure out what the next thousand steps are going to be because of those first 10 steps. um not nearly

22:27 not nearly as relevant to the conversation. So that's why I was like I'm so curious where it's going. Relevant to another conversation though. I mean still a cool theory. I like it.

22:35 Yeah. Um but I'm glad that I just was like well let me see which one you're you're talking about because it was the right one to talk about.

22:43 You want another question like that that I like? Yeah.

22:46 Sandler related. So in Sandler there are two 7030 rules. Care to guess?

22:53 I got no no chance at getting it right either. Do you know either of them? Nope.

22:58 Okay, so here's Yeah. Yeah. Go, go, go.

23:01 No, you were about to say it. I know you I know the 8020 one, but not the 7030 stuff.

23:05 Well, 8020 is a whole different category. And then there's the 20 6020.

23:08 I like numbers. So, here's the uh here's the first 7030 rules. When you're in a selling conversation, 70% of the time

23:16 you want them talking and 30% of the time you want to do the talking, which means you got to ask good questions when you're talking so that

23:24 you can do some power listening. Which is why the pain funnel helps us. Hey, tell me more about that. Give me an example. Hey, don't skip the details.

23:33 How long's that been going on? What'd you try to do about it? Dang it, that seems like it should have worked. Why didn't that work? What are the consequences of doing nothing? Man, that

23:42 can't feel good. So from your perspective, what now? Right. So if you just ask those questions, their answers

23:49 will be longer and you can conquer the first 7030 rule. Yeah.

23:53 The other 7030 rule has to do with transactional analysis. This is the lesser known one. Are you familiar with transactional analysis, Austin?

24:01 Keep leading the way on this.

24:03 All right. So this is a I don't want to get too complicated on this psychology, but what Dr. Eric Burn said way back in the 1960s is that we're not bipolar.

24:13 We're probably tripolar. So there's a child ego state, an adult ego state, and a parent ego state. And I did that because he demonstrated it with three

24:22 circles. So what we say in in Sandler is the child ego state is where your wants and your desires come from. Right? I

24:31 want the candy bar. That's why they put the candy bars low in the grocery store.

24:35 But it works on adults, too. Or at least on Timmy it does. And then the logic adult inst uh ego state comes in and you

24:41 decide is this logical can I afford this? And then we go to our parent ego state and we make a decision. Is this a

24:50 priority? Yeah, I want it. Yeah, I can afford a candy bar. I'm an adult. Yeah.

24:54 But is it the right thing to do at 5:00 when my wife's making me dinner? Maybe not. And so what we say is spend 70% of

25:02 your time in your nurturing parent ego state creating an environment where they can be honest with you without fear of

25:09 reprisal, without fear of judgment or explanation or criticism. Right? So 70% of your time your nurturing parent. And

25:18 then when they start becoming their adult ego state, then you go to your adult ego state also. And that's where the deal's closed.

25:25 Yeah. So in the pain funnel, you take them to their child ego state. Is this even something you want? And then in the investment step, you take them to the

25:32 adult ego state and you say, "Hey, are you willing and able to invest the time and the money and the effort?" And then in the decision step, you take them to

25:40 their parent ego state and you say, "Yeah, but how do you make decisions?

25:45 And is this a priority?" And so when they visit all three of their ego states, the only way you can get them there is 70% of the time in your

25:52 nurturing parent. Never go to your child ego state and join them in the uh in the submissive behavior and and don't get logical too early

26:02 because never in the history of the words calm down or the words calm down never calmed anybody down. Right.

26:07 You'll just explain your way into a hole.

26:09 Yeah. Oh, that's great. Didn't know either of those. Super stoked to know both of them. What's this 20 60 one?

26:18 20% of the people that show up are going to immediately want what you have. And 20% of the people, no matter what you say, they're not buying it. Yeah.

26:25 And that 60% in the middle, if you do it right, they'll consider what you have. And that's all I'm looking for. Right.

26:33 Don't get too excited about the yeses. Don't get too worried about the nos. Have conversations with the middle 60.

26:39 Yeah. All right. And then I think I know the 8020 that you're talking about, but I've been wrong a couple times so far. Hit me with the 8020.

26:48 20% of your sales team will produce 80% of your results. And that, by the way, applies to everything. 20% of the

26:55 behaviors that I do on a weekly basis to manifest the results that I'm looking for will yield 80% of the results. And

27:02 the rest of it, I can't look at as failures because I never know what's going to work. Yeah.

27:07 Just keep doing keep doing the behaviors.

27:09 That was the only one that I've gotten right so far.

27:12 Or new knew before. Hey, but that's that's cool. That means I uh 80% of the time I was learning, right?

27:19 Yeah. You want to play more numbers games? I got lots of stupid number games.

27:22 I'm happy to do it. I don't have a hard stop. Are you cool if we keep going? Because we are past the half hour mark. Um yeah, I'm cool if you're cool.

27:30 Let's keep playing the numbers game then. Let's keep going. All right. So, let's start at 10,000. You know what the 10,000 hour rule is?

27:37 That's the mastery one. It's Yeah. Malcolm Gladwell.

27:41 Yeah. It takes 10,000 hours to become an expert at something.

27:47 And that's a long time. You know, in my in my Sandler journey, I hit 10,000 hours roughly at like year seven because

27:55 I'm I'm a Sandler, you know, franchise owner. So 3 to five hours a day for seven years. Okay, no wonder I know what

28:03 the 7030 rules are. It's not fair. So let's back that off a little bit.

28:08 There's a 100h hour rule. And what the 100 hour rule says, if you will invest 16 to 17 minutes a day doing anything,

28:17 in a year you will practice that task for 100 hours and you'll be better than 95% of the other people on the planet practicing that.

28:28 Nice.

28:28 What? Because most people don't practice. Yeah.

28:31 And then there's the 10 uh the 10 is the 10-minute rule. 10 minutes of doing something is better than 10 hours of thinking about it.

28:41 That's practical application. Yeah. Right. You've got to actually go out.

28:44 You can learn. You could read about these Sandler techniques, but if you don't try it and then modify it, it's not going to work, right?

28:53 And that leads me to the 10- foot putt rule that I made up.

28:58 And here's what it is. If I told you, "Hey, Austin, I'm going to come by your office in 10 days and I'm going to give you one chance to make a 10-ft putt. And

29:06 if you make that putt, I'm going to give you $10,000." What are you going to do between now and 10 days from now? Putting every single day.

29:15 You and me both. But you know what?

29:17 Here's the cool thing. Most people won't practice because they're too negative. Like, I can't get any better in 10 days. Or

29:25 they're too egotistical. I'm as good as I can get. I don't need this practice.

29:29 I'm just going to wing it. What are my chances?

29:31 And uh they'll talk themselves out of practicing me for 10 grand. I'm going to obsess on it.

29:39 And by the way, the metaphor there is uh you can practice your sales techniques, too.

29:45 You can think about what you're going to say for the next 10 hours or you can practice saying it for the next 10 minutes and then dial the phone. Give it a try.

29:53 Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I I didn't have any of these rules, but I got to experience them just from determination.

29:59 And like so, as I had mentioned before, you know, I'm about nine months into my journey of becoming a Sandler seller.

30:05 Um, and over the last nine months, I I think I've made two to three,000, you know, cold calls. Um, and I it was one

30:14 of those things where it's, you know, the first let's go with the first hundred calls I just miserable staring

30:22 at it like I don't want to do it. I this is awful. But then after the hundth it was like, you know, this isn't so bad.

30:28 And then after like the 500th, it was like, you know, this really isn't that bad at all. And now it's kind of like one of those things where it's like it doesn't bother me that much. I mean, I don't look forward to it per se. I'm not

30:37 saying like I'm a convert. Cold calling is my favorite thing in the world to do.

30:40 But like I I have a noticeable noticeably different internal dialogue when I go to sit down and make a phone call than even just nine months ago just

30:49 from getting the repetitions. And I feel like, you know, with your the numbers that you put out there, the 10 minutes a day or the 15 minutes a day, the 100

30:57 attempts or whatnot, like that felt like the journey that I was on without knowing what milestones. I was kind of sitting there. I was like, after doing this a month straight, this feels like

31:06 it's not that bad. It sucked at the beginning and you know it took some time to get some comfortability and you know I still have plenty to learn and I'm

31:14 certainly not calling myself a master but it did feel that those specific numbers you said kind of are aligning with anecdotally aligning with exactly what I was experiencing during it.

31:24 Yeah. And it's a journey. You may never grow to love it. That would make you a freak of nature.

31:29 I have no expectations to grow to love it. However, and that's my my coach told me that. I'm like, "Dude, when am I going to start

31:36 like feeling good about this?" And he goes, "Oh, see you thought Sandler was a destination and it's not it's a journey,

31:44 man." And I'm like, "Oh, you're telling me it's never going to be easy." And you don't want it to be easy. Yeah.

31:49 Because if sales starts being easy, we lose our job to AI. Now we're right back where we started. No chance of that happening.

31:57 Yeah. I mean, it it'll never replace the intimacy part. I just I just can't believe in that. I think you know the other thing on that too is um and it

32:05 ties into your business stature thing. I think as soon as you start replacing the human interaction with a customer or prospect with AI in my opinion to some

32:14 degree you're saying you're not worth my time and that's not business stature.

32:18 That's putting yourself above them in the business stature and it's going look I I don't think it's worth actually calling you to start building rapport and potentially a long-term business

32:27 relationship. So, I'm gonna have my AI do it because it can do it at scale and it's going to pretend to be me. And I'm I'm kind of trying to trick you into thinking it is me because why else would

32:35 I pretend it's me, right? And now all of a sudden it's going well.

32:38 I'm looking at that from the other side and I go, "Well, wait a second." Like, we're not equal business. So, when I need something like if something goes wrong or, you know, I have an emergency

32:47 on my end, I can't trust that you'll be there to help me.

32:50 You're gonna send an AI bot that is going to be like, "I understand." I'm like, "You don't understand. You're a robot. You don't have these emotions."

32:56 and so like don't do this to me. Um I just I think that that's really cool about the that formula that you had and

33:04 being able to like deliberately look at that and understand the impact that we're having when we try to like bring AI into a conversation

33:12 and it's basic conflict resolution from the old days. You know, when I was a Marine, there were times when we'd be in foreign countries and we weren't the

33:20 most popular nation in the world and they would always teach us to introduce yourself. Hi, I'm Tim. Right? And and

33:27 then the conversation is now I'm I'm a human.

33:32 How many cold calls do you get where they start off with what they do, but they don't even introduce themselves? Yeah.

33:38 They they say your name wrong like, "Hey, Mr. Guring," or, "Hey, Timothy, you know, this is, you know, and they don't even say, "Hey, this is Bob from

33:46 wherever it is." Yeah. Yeah, they they don't want to give you their name, which takes away from that intimacy score

33:53 and they don't want to ask if you have a second or they'll let them let you know what's going on. They just try to get into the pitch right away and it's like, let's not establishing the intimacy and

34:02 like acknowledging on the other side, I don't know what's happening. I'm reaching out of the blue. Is that all right? You know, is that okay? Do you

34:09 mind if I go on my next part which is developing like the I understand that you have a whole life that's complex happening and I

34:16 coming in and you know not interrupting but unannounced showing up and then like hey but is this okay with you at this time? And if not no big deal.

34:27 And if you'll recall that's how our relationship started. You cold called me.

34:32 Yeah. and I immediately figured out that this is a very considerate person and he must be Sandler trained because he's using some of the words that I'm

34:40 familiar with. And so I called you on it and you you admitted it like yeah because it makes sense and right away I

34:48 trusted you because you didn't try to hide behind anything and you were considerate about the conversation we were having. So you congratulations and

34:57 by the way I I answered the phone same way I told you I do. I answer all cold calls because I like to screw with people. Yeah.

35:04 And you were considerate. So why would I screw with a considerate person? Never.

35:10 I mean, we're trying to have a little bit of fun. I wouldn't have been mad if you'd been screwing with me a little bit. I've gotten a few people and I just thought it was a, you know, all right, now we're playing a little game, you know?

35:18 Well, even when I'm screwing with them, I really I'm I'm really I try to do it nicely. So that's why I do the whole, "Hey, you're doing a great job." I don't

35:26 suppose you guys have a training program that taught you all that because what I'm really saying is it's horrible. Let me talk to that guy.

35:33 Yeah, but there's a nice way to say it's horrible and then there's the mean way. And I like the nice way of saying it.

35:39 You know, you know, I I took one today. The guy, here was his opening email to me. He emailed me. He said, "We really need

35:47 some sales training. Can you call me right away?" This was an email. So, I emailed him with my calendar link just like I did with you. And I said, "Sure,

35:55 find time on my calendar. Happy to meet." Then he sent me his link and said, "Go ahead and sign up for for time with me." And I'm like, "Okay, this is

36:02 weird already." So my Spidey senses are open. So I went ahead and booked time with him. And then the person that I

36:09 booked time with wasn't the person that answered the phone at our agreed upon time. Yeah.

36:14 And I'm like, "So, uh, tell me what you're looking for and I'll share with you what I got. My standard opening line, right?" And he's like, "Well, actually, I was calling about uh you

36:23 know, we work with other coaches." And I'm like, "Oh, okay. So, this was a bait and switch." Yeah.

36:28 And he's like, "What do you mean?" I'm like, "Well, you pretended like you were looking for sales training, but it sounds like you want to sell me something, which tells me y'all need

36:36 some sales training." And we had a great conversation because he took it right. But I thought it was kind of funny. Like, dude, come on. It's not my first rodeo.

36:46 Yeah. I I've been bait and switched a couple times and that the second that happened I'm glad that you stayed open to it because the second that happened to me I was like oh I'm off like forget

36:55 that. Like you said you wanted to have like a networking conversation. You didn't show up. You sent me one of your software developers who then started asking me questions and obviously was

37:03 doing a discovery call without me saying I had any interest.

37:06 And I was like great that that is rapport destroyed. I will never trust anyone from that organization ever again and it doesn't matter what you guys do.

37:15 Um, you know, and you know, I haven't heard from them since probably because they're like, you know, we'll run like a, you know, burn the bridge strategy that might work on a couple folks, but I mean, so disrespectful, I thought.

37:26 So disrespect. But, you know, the cool thing is once I'm sure they're the wrong color gumball, then I I practice by no resiliency. Oh,

37:33 since I know this one isn't going forward, why don't I see if I can convert them by just being a nurturing parent, by being genuine?

37:43 Yeah. And so, well, tell me about what you do. And then he so he starts telling me and I'm like, gosh, what challenge would I have to have to care about that?

37:49 And let's say I was going to introduce you to somebody. How do you want me to introduce you? And in those three questions, I demonstrated they need some sales training.

38:00 I'll have to try to be more positive in those situations instead of a skeptic and like see what I clearly had a hidden agenda, right? I was trying to convert him.

38:09 Yeah.

38:11 That being said, you did go into that meeting thinking that you guys were having a conversation about their sales training, so that's only fair. True.

38:18 True. Cool.

38:20 Well, we've gone well over about by 15 minutes. You can No, wonderful conversation. I would keep going. I do have to prep for my next

38:27 meeting though. Um, but this was fantastic. Uh, before we sign off, um, anything that you want to say to just kind of put a neat bow tie on the

38:35 conversation? uh any summary or you know any parting thoughts that are completely random and unrelated to what we talked about.

38:43 How about this? Uh information and education will never yield the transformation you're looking for without application and modification.

38:52 What? That's a line.

38:54 I assume that was one that you've used before. Yeah, a couple times. A lot of Asians.

39:00 Yeah. Uh I love the application part of it. I think the wheel doesn't turn without the application. You got to try it and then you got to modify it for disc

39:08 style and and for trust. Do they trust you or do they don't trust you? Are they in a good mood or a bad mood?

39:13 So, cool. Well, Tim, I appreciate the time today. We'll have to do it again sometime.

39:18 Austin, call me anytime. You're on my list of good guys now. Nailed it. All right.