Hamish Knox on Rapport, Pattern Interrupts, and Sandler Sales Consistency

Transcript

0:03 We have another episode of Tailwind.

0:05 Today we are joined by Hamish. Hamish, tell us a little bit more about yourself.

0:09 Thanks for having me, Austin. So, I uh run the office for Sandler in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Uh we celebrated our

0:16 15th anniversary this past May 11th, so uh a few weeks ago. Uh I am the first uh multi-time author in the Sandler

0:24 Network. So, I wrote a book called Accountability of the Sandler Way back in 2014 and a book change the Sandler Way back in 2016. I'm also the first uh

0:32 and only Canadian recipient of the David H. Sandler Award, which is our highest non- sales honor and was extra special for me because not only was I nominated

0:40 by my peers, my peers around the world actually selected me to receive that honor. So, I'm incredibly grateful uh for my peers in the Sandler network. And

0:48 I also support our clients in creating consistency and predictability in their revenue generation, which is inherently inconsistent, unpredictable, so they can

0:56 eventually successfully exit through one of my exit advisory partners.

1:00 Nice. Uh for those books, can I find them on Amazon or I have to go look somewhere special?

1:05 Anywhere that you get a book or an audio book, both of them are available uh on Audible as well. So audio book, physical book, either one you can find uh on Amazon or Audible.

1:16 Cool. I'll have to check it out. I'm in I'm in the my own journey of becoming a Sandler seller. I'm still very much in the beginning phase. So more content will always help.

1:24 Absolutely.

1:25 Yeah. So before we uh so hit record button, you know, we started talking and then you were talking about the difference between rapport and trust.

1:31 That was super interesting and a good distinction to understand. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

1:35 Yeah, absolutely. And rapport and relationships. So a lot of people say relationships my all good. So so uh this is a common

1:45 thing in sales. Oh it's all about relationships. You got to develop a relationship. No. What we have to do is develop rapport. And the root of the word rapport is the word trust. And

1:53 people don't trust sales people. And especially if we're talking about top of funnel that is a low trust environment because essentially we're all wired for stranger danger because our brain is

2:02 wired to keep us safe which usually means stuck. So, if we encounter a stranger and that's a networking event, a prospecting call, a trade show,

2:10 anything that's top of funnel, even if it's an intro, even if there's an intro, you know, hey, Troy introduced uh Austin

2:18 and I, and Troy knows me, Troy knows Austin, all Austin knows, Troy in some way vouched for me. Now, he may have

2:26 just said, "Hey, exists, right? So, I'm introducing you." Or he might say, "Oh, Hamish changed my business. He changed my life. he

2:34 whatever. Either way, it's still a stranger. So, I always ask, especially on an intro call, hey Austin, what did

2:42 Troy say about us that prompted you to take this call today? Except maybe you're just doing a favor for him. And then I'll smile and I'll laugh and they

2:51 go, "Ah, you know what? I do owe Troy one, but really the reason I took it is because Troy said this, this, this, this, this, and that was really interesting to me." And then I can go,

2:59 "Well, tell me more about that. help me understand and we can figure out if what I did for Troy uh is worth uh what I did

3:06 what I could potentially do for you. So the the trust piece is really critical because we can build trust really

3:12 quickly. Relationships take forever and even if we have a quote unquote great relationship, it doesn't mean that the buy the buyer is actually going to buy

3:20 from us. All it means is they think that all it means is that we're friends. And I would rather have rapport and develop

3:27 a relationship than attempt to develop a relationship that ultimately they don't trust me to solve their problems. They like me as a person. They want to go

3:35 grab a drink with me, coffee, hang out, whatever. Except they're never going to become my client. And ultimately, if we're in sales, client first, friend

3:44 second. So, what are some things that like as you're trying to develop rapport and not a relationship, what are like the red flags that you should be looking out for your like for like let's say for

3:53 me if I'm sitting down and I'm starting the beginning of the buyer journey or the client journey uh what are the things that I can go okay that I'm doing

4:00 a good job going rapport oh I accidentally I'm trying to go relationship and then like steer myself back so ultimately it's

4:08 two things one is about us one is about them so the one about us is am I keeping the focus on them and their issues because the minute I start talking about

4:16 well we've been in business this long or we've you know done this or we do that or we've got these awards our buyer's like okay cool you sound like literally

4:23 everybody else that I talk to as so keep the focus on them and that doesn't mean that we're not talking it doesn't mean that we're not telling

4:31 stories about how we've worked with other clients maybe related to their industry or just in general hey I have this problem you know hey tell me more

4:39 about that help me understand you know what sounds similar we were working with a company over here's what their challenge was. Does that resonate with you, Austin? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it really

4:47 resonates with Okay. And now I'm back to you. Right. So, it's still a conversation. It's got to be a conversation, not an interrogation. So, that's number one. The thing about us is

4:55 we got to keep it focused on them. The thing with them is we need to listen.

5:00 Are we creating real movement or just agreement? So, hey Austin, you know, great to meet you today or you know,

5:08 great to meet you. Today's conversation is really about building rapport, figuring out if we like each other enough to ever want to speak again.

5:15 Fair. Fair. So, if we do like each other enough, at the end of the conversation today, next step is we'll we'll put

5:23 another time in our calendar to have a bit of a longer conversation. I'll dive deeper into my world. I need to I'd like to dive deeper into your world. Really

5:31 make sure I can see it through your eyes. How's that sound to you? Yeah.

5:34 Yeah, it sounds okay to me. Fast forward. Hey, Austin. So, kind of feels like we like each other enough to to want to talk again. Fair. Fair. So, when

5:44 are you thinking uh that we should get together in the next couple of weeks?

5:47 Well, you know, I really got to think about it and I you know, I you know, I got to talk to my business partner again. whatever it might be, it's they

5:56 get wishy-washy and they and what happened at the start of the conversation, which is yes, I will put a time in the calendar turns into I got to

6:05 think about it or well, you know, I got stuff coming up and you know, we could do something, but well, how about you just give me a call in two weeks. It's

6:13 like me. That's telling me that there's something off. And we're allowed to uh

6:20 call that out. And I call that out is a really aggressive phrase or has an aggressive connotation. What I mean is to say, Austin, totally cool. Appreciate

6:30 that you've got a you want to think about it. Here's what I've discovered is if we don't get something in the calendar, this is going to fall off both

6:38 of our desks because I got a lot on the go. You've got a lot on the go. And what I would hate to have happen is 2 3 months from now we reconnect and

6:47 you're like, "Oh yeah, you know, I really could have used your help a month ago. Uh-oh. That's my fault, not your fault." So, and then I have to make it

6:55 okay. You know, on the other hand, Austin, if if you don't feel like there's a a connection, like there's some trust built in this conversation,

7:03 let's not take it any further because I know people do business with people that they trust. And if I haven't built trust

7:10 with you in this conversation, experience tells me it's probably not going to happen. What do you want to do? And then I'm falling on my sword, right?

7:18 It's not your problem. It's my problem that I didn't build rapport with you.

7:24 And I'm making it okay for you to stick the knife in me and twist it. And because we're still selling to humans,

7:31 they're unlikely to do that. However, what they're likely to do is give us new information. Yeah.

7:37 Right. And then we get paid as sellers on the information gathered, not the information given.

7:43 So basically, you know, as you're going through kind of a guiding light, sounds like as long as you're keeping it more focused on them, what they're trying to achieve that whereas in like, you know,

7:51 if you think like a friendship, like a friendship's usually pretty balanced.

7:54 It's both back and forth. And then in this process though, stay on the rapport, which is you helping them, staying in their world, not trying to bring them into yours constantly.

8:03 Exactly. Because and we have to remember though that there's got to be balance because if our buyer ever feels interrogated,

8:11 that also kills rapport because now they now we go to the other side which is the pushy aggressive salesperson instead of the passive super, you know,

8:20 relationship oriented, oh yeah, take your time. It's okay. Just get back to me whenever. Well, that salesperson's funnel probably looks more like a

8:28 pencil. um and and they're they're probably not long for their organization cuz their managers eventually be like, "Hey, you haven't sold anything." Like

8:36 this is a sales job. On the other hand, we don't want to go to that pushy aggressive like if you don't put something in the calendar right now,

8:43 then you're not a buyer. Like that's not helpful either.

8:47 So there we have to make sure that we are treating equal business stature. We are treating them as an equal just as we expect them to treat us as an equal. And

8:56 we're the experts. So, I have actually said to a buyer who was hesitant, we'll put it that way, to uh go along with

9:06 what I had recommended to them. We were closer to the end of the funnel. And I said, "Hey, totally understand this. Out of curiosity,

9:14 you ever been to like your doctor?" And they go, "Yeah." And I said, "How often do you fight with your doctor?" Yeah.

9:21 And they said, "What?" And they said, "Well, like how often do you fight with your doctor over like what their recommendations are?" Well, never. Well, why is that? Well, because they're the

9:29 expert. I said, "Yeah." Yep. I like that. It's a great line.

9:36 And you have to you have to have enough rapport to do that, right? Like, you know, I felt I I I and also I had nothing to lose, right? Because this

9:44 person who theoretically said they wanted my support is now digging their heels in on the support that I provide.

9:53 And now, by the way, I should have figured out what they were thinking of. Like so also partly my fault, right?

9:57 Like I'll own that. I should have figured out what that was. However, I'm the expert. Like you came, you know,

10:04 you asked for my support and similar like you go to an accountant and say, "Help me lower my taxes." You don't tell the accountant how they how they should lower your taxes because they're the

10:12 expert. So when we're starting at the top of the funnel, we have to position ourselves as that expert, as that person to be trusted while still framing it all about the person that we're talking to.

10:23 Yeah. So you when we started that uh example of kind of how you build rapport and as it's growing down the line, you started with an intro. Intros are the

10:31 best. You can never beat that, but we're not always going to get those. How are you managing rapport at the very very top where you're coming in cold?

10:38 Yeah. So there's a technique that we teach our clients in Sandler called the pattern interrupt. And we've all had the

10:45 conversation where it's uh you know, hey, is uh Mr. Bayal there? and you're

10:52 like, "Okay, salesperson click." Um, and uh, and so what we have to do is we have to interrupt that pattern. Now, my

11:01 favorite, so when I started my Sandler business 15 years ago, I in my first six months, I made 5,000 cold calls. And

11:08 that was either speaking directly with or leaving a voicemail, a voicemail for a decision maker. So, ring ring, hey, is Austin there? No, he's on holidays. That didn't count. Okay. 9 to 15,000 dials.

11:20 Let's say that I talked to out of the 5,000 cold calls, let's say that I had 1500 I actually connected with, right?

11:25 So 3,500 voicemails I talked to them eventually and then 1500 actual connections.

11:31 My favorite pattern interrupt is, "Hey Austin, Hamish calling. This is a cold call. It's okay to hang up on me." Yeah.

11:38 And most people would would laugh and and I'd ask my clients and you know, hey, how many people do you think hang hung up on me? It was more than zero.

11:48 And I've heard upwards of a thousand. Um, and the answer is three.

11:54 Out of out of 1500 people, I said the same thing. Three people hung up on me.

11:59 I called them all right back. Hey, Austin. Hamish calling. I think my phone died. Yeah, I got meetings out of two of them.

12:07 The third one hung up on me, which was wonderful because it told me everything I needed to know. And this is something else when we're prospecting and doing

12:13 top of funnel is the gift of time. So all of us all we have is time as human beings that's all we have is our

12:21 valuable is time and when a buyer says no to us or a buyer hangs up on us or

12:29 even even if we've done the job of of confirming the appointment in advance and we still get that 5 minutes before

12:36 decline sorry man something came up they've given us the gift of time and it's on us as to how we want to use it.

12:43 Most of us waste it. I know back before I started my Sandler business, if I had a buyer who uh you know did the five minute decline thing, and this is

12:51 pre-COVID, so we're still meeting in person. I didn't run back to my desk and start making prospecting calls. I sat at the coffee shop, had a latte, felt bad

12:59 about myself for an hour, maybe an hour and a half, and then, you know, went back to my desk and slowly reintegrated

13:06 myself into my day-to-day. So, it's the gift of time. So that third buyer who hung up on me twice in a row gave me a

13:13 gift because I never called them back because I knew exactly what was going on. So that's another thing. Top of funnel is how are you best leveraging your time when you're given these gifts.

13:26 Um I mean you made thousands of cold calls.

13:31 I assume that you weren't just doing that in like 250 one day sprints. You were probably doing it more regularly.

13:37 Is that correct? Was it a consistent practice that you were applying to get that done?

13:41 Yeah, it's the, you know, Sandler said do a little bit prospecting all of the time instead of a lot some of the time.

13:46 Now, a little and a lot the the numbers could change, right? So, when I started, I was doing a lot of activity. I was doing it

13:55 consistently. So, I'm also a crosscountry ski uh racer um on on marathons, marathon distance and and

14:02 longer. And so it's consistency and and so with prospecting with top of the funnel, how consistent are you being?

14:10 Are you doing a little bit all the time?

14:13 So for some people that might mean one a day. That might mean one a day. We had a guest come to one of our training

14:21 sessions once, PhD, super technical, obviously super intelligent. We were talking about uh proactive prospecting plans, which Sandler calls a cookbook.

14:30 And they put up their hand and I said question. They said I can't do that. I said you can't do what? And they said oh

14:38 well I I that's that's too much. I have all this stuff over here that I have to do you know on the operation side and this side and that side. I said okay cool.

14:47 Hey um you mind if we go through a little bit of an exercise? And they said sure. So we walked through the exercise and what they discovered is they had to

14:55 do one proactive prospecting activity every business day. not calendar day, every business day to hit their numbers.

15:02 And so they're doing the numbers in front of me and I could just see the the realization coming in their eyes. And I said,

15:10 "So now that you've done the the arithmetic on it, like, how you feeling?" They went, "Oh, I can do that." Yeah.

15:17 And that goes back to with our brain, right? Our brain stranger danger, right?

15:22 So hey Austin, you should go talk to strangers. Your brain's like, "Not going to happen, right? Oh, and by the way, Austin, you should talk to strangers regularly, like

15:30 every single day. And your brain's like, "Heck no. This is not happening." Right?

15:34 Oh, I have to I don't have to talk to a stranger a day. I have to reach out to a stranger a day. I might leave a

15:42 voicemail. I like I might not talk to them. I could do one a day. That sounds easy. And now you start the progress and

15:48 you start building momentum. So, did that like specific person did they start with one and then eventually start creeping up as they realized it was they

15:57 could actually probably get five in a day and beyond just the one?

16:00 So, I actually don't know because they their company actually got sold uh shortly after they came as a guest. So, we actually never started working with

16:09 them as a client uh because their their whole business changed um underneath them. uh and I have had clients where

16:18 they started with one a day and they moved up to two a day and then they moved and this is the challenge with high achievers right when we work with

16:24 ambitious and driven individuals who are not necessarily on a path of consistency when it comes to filling the top of the

16:32 funnel. They want to go from zero to 10 a day or zero to 20 a day. I'm like uh-uh you're you're going to fail because you're going to do that for two

16:40 three days and then your brain is going to be like man that feels like a lot of work. we should probably take a break and then as soon as you stop all the all

16:47 the momentum dies. So little bit of momentum every day. How are we moving the needle? How are creating velocity

16:55 every single day? And this is a phrase that I give to my uh my clients on a consistent basis is be better than zero

17:02 every day. As long as you're better than zero, you've got momentum, right? You're moving you're moving towards your mountain top, whatever that mountaintop

17:10 that is. And I know as a high achiever, if you just do one, you're probably going to be really frustrated. Celebrate the one as opposed to beating yourself

17:18 up for the four or five that you didn't do cuz at least you made progress and celebrate that.

17:24 Yeah. So, is it enough just to start with that small like build it brick by brick, slowly get up like the tolerance

17:32 and the capability or there other things people should be applying to like their practice to also gain the consistency?

17:38 Ultimately it's so do it consistently. Yes. Start with be better than zero. Yeah.

17:44 Number two is come up with a reward for yourself. So in my book on accountability we talk about consequences and without

17:52 consequences you can't have accountability. However the word consequence has been uh comes off as negative. Right? That's we all think

18:00 consequences are negative. The word consequence is neutral. It can be positive or negative. So what I I say is I'm cookie operated. Right? So legitimately back when I first started Yeah.

18:09 if I made my dials for the day, I allowed myself to go to the coffee shop across the road and get a cookie.

18:15 Yeah, that was my reward. And so what are what is your version of a cookie? Now it's something small, right? And I've heard people say, "Well, I get to go listen to

18:24 music." I'm like, "Great. Do you have to listen a half an hour of music or can you listen to your favorite song?" Right? So what are those little tiny

18:32 rewards that we can give ourselves that keep that momentum going? The other thing that we need is uh and this is has

18:40 also has a bit of a negative connotation is a support group. Now a support group can be one person. It could be a coach, mentor, adviser, whatever that might be

18:48 or it could be a group of two to five other people who are there to celebrate and support you because

18:55 as we go through change and my second book was on change. Humans don't like change and we like to revert back to our comfort zone. So if you're making zero

19:04 proactive prospecting attempts a day and you even go to one, you're going to do that, you know, day one, day two, maybe

19:10 day three, by day four or five, you're probably going to stumble, right? And you're going to find other things to do.

19:18 And when that's where our support group comes in to say, "Hey, Austin, man, you

19:24 had a bad day. go home, you know, have a good evening, don't think about this, come back tomorrow and get back on the horse again.

19:33 And then and then you're much more likely to be like, yeah, I am going to get back on the horse today or tomorrow.

19:38 Except instead of going home and going, why why why am I not consistently prospecting? So, start come up with a small reward, find a support group.

19:48 Those would be the three things to do.

19:50 That's great. I like the idea of uh you know when we're in the sales position we're constantly being like no is not a negative thing. It's not failure. It's

19:57 just part of the process and it feels like you're kind of extending it too.

20:01 Also look you're going to have a day where you maybe you don't hit your goals. It doesn't mean you failed. It just means you got to course correct get back on track but don't let that be the

20:10 thing that undercuts you and like makes it so you don't call for the rest of the week or something. 100%.

20:15 Yeah. All right. So, we're getting close to what we agreed on our upfront contract about how long we wanted to talk. Uh, any parting final thoughts

20:24 before I let you go that you think, you know, this is the one that drives home for individuals who are listening in.

20:29 So, here here's another thing that we haven't touched on quite yet. The biggest cost of sales is missed appointments. So,

20:38 hey, success, right? We made the prospecting attempt. We talked to a buyer. The buyer said they'll meet with us. Yay, we did it. Right. Except, and I

20:47 know I've done this, I will agree to meet with buyers or sellers just to get them off the phone.

20:52 Yeah. Right. And I don't think I'm a bad person. However, I have done that that behavior. So, what we need to do is a

21:00 Sandler technique called the post-sale uh or post-sell. And so, anytime a buyer makes a commitment, we have to make sure

21:07 that they're actually committed to doing it. So, uh, years ago, I was, uh, making a prospecting call, spoke with the CEO of a local chemical company, and we had

21:16 agreed that we were going to get together, uh, the following Friday at like 8:30 in the morning. Perfect. I'll send you a meeting invite. Hey, out of

21:24 curiosity, what might come up between now and next Friday that would cause us to move or cancel the meeting? And they said, hi,

21:32 you know, it's a good question. Let me check. Oh, I'm at an all day off-site strategy session next Friday.

21:38 And I said, "So, would it make sense for us to reschedule the our call right now?" And they said, "Absolutely it would." So, we shifted to Thursday afternoon. And as I I tell my clients,

21:47 if I hadn't asked that question, three outcomes. Outcome number one, I never hear from them again.

21:53 Legitimately, I just never hear from them again. Outcome number two, uh, I get a message from them or their executive assistant couple of days in

22:01 advance. Oh, hey, he's out of town. You know, can we reschedule? Okay. Or the third one is I get the five minutes

22:08 before decline message, right? Oh, hey, I didn't realize that. Da da da. Now the the first one obviously we don't want.

22:16 But even the second one now I'm in chase mode. Oh, is he available here? Is he available there? And again, this is pre-COVID. So like it there's not a lot

22:23 of video calls going on. So for when we're doing our proactive prospecting, congratulations. You connected with them. Congratulations.

22:32 They said they wanted to meet. We still have to confirm that they're really interested in actually having a

22:40 conversation with us. So, we don't go when the buyer ultimately ghosts us or declines the meeting invite.

22:48 Yeah. I I've had a couple times where somebody reached out to me with a legitimate reason as to why they couldn't, you know, make the the meeting. And if I had just asked that

22:57 question because there it was travel plans. Yeah.

22:59 Like, if I asked the question, it wouldn't have ever happened. like that literally would have gotten me out of that one. So, it's it's it's fun to like get that yes and I

23:07 totally still get the high from that yes. Yeah.

23:09 But and I forget all the time to do the post. So, I'm like writing it down. I'm like, do not forget to ask this question. And totally I'm hoping it hasn't worked out for me

23:17 yet. I don't have a cool story yet, but I imagine there'll be more yeses where I can practice it. And I'm really looking forward to being able to apply that for my own.

23:24 I love it. I love it. Austin, thanks for having me on today.

23:27 Hey, this was fantastic. Really appreciate you. Have a great rest of your day. Chicken.