Guy Ragault on Sales Ownership, Account Growth, and Prospecting

Transcript

0:02 We have another episode of Tailwind.

0:04 Today we're joined by Gee Rago. Uh Gee,

0:07 tell us a little bit more about

0:08 yourself.

0:09 Yes, Gee. I'm uh from Fairfield,

0:11 Connecticut and uh I'm a Sandler

0:15 franchisee here in the Connecticut area.

0:18 Joined about a year ago. I've been on my

0:21 own as a consultant for a couple years.

0:23 And previously my whole career was in uh

0:26 technical sales environment, sales

0:28 leadership and technical sales

0:29 environment. So mostly sales engineers

0:33 needing to turn uh themselves into

0:35 making more money and um and becoming

0:38 salespeople. Uh I worked in the

0:40 semiconductor industry selling

0:42 semiconductors

0:43 uh oiling gas instrumentation at

0:46 software uh and uh more recently uh for

0:49 French company that was making

0:51 industrial batteries highly highly

0:54 reliable industrial batteries. So my my

0:56 career really re revolve around uh

0:59 highly technical solutions in an

1:01 industrial world and um and I find

1:05 that's an area where the techn technical

1:08 people really rely on their technical

1:10 background

1:12 >> as their validation in front of a client

1:14 and sometimes most of the time it

1:17 becomes a crutch

1:18 >> and um and that's really where where

1:21 I've come from in my most u most recent

1:24 experience my entire career.

1:26 Yeah, I uh I joined a sales consulting

1:28 company from a more technical uh you

1:32 know background and I wasn't consulting

1:34 people on how to sell but I was running

1:36 like you know support or change

1:37 management and stuff like that and every

1:39 time I got into a sales call uh just as

1:42 like you know the sales engineer role of

1:44 it I'd have to constantly be like

1:46 knocking myself back from like going

1:47 into the technical aspect and just

1:49 constantly reminding myself and it was

1:51 such a long journey of just being like

1:53 nobody cares about that technical detail

1:56 they care about what the business

1:58 outcome is going to be or what the

1:59 problem it's solving is or whatever that

2:01 is um and so I can totally uh you know

2:04 identify with the that transitioning

2:07 somebody from a sales engineer brain to

2:09 a actual sales brain um and I find it

2:12 it's interesting because I work on our

2:14 product so I have to like sit and spend

2:16 time like okay get out of code brain get

2:19 out of engineer brain now you got to go

2:21 over to the new brain that's appropriate

2:22 for you know these types of

2:24 conversations So, thank you for helping

2:26 us uh engineer type brains.

2:29 >> Yeah. Um I think that I think the best

2:31 analogy for the transition is um uh

2:35 going from professor to being a

2:37 therapist.

2:38 >> Oh, that's right. So, so you're teaching

2:40 a class, you get really comfortable with

2:42 lecturing, which is not necessarily the

2:44 best way to teach to start with, but uh

2:46 but but classically in the university

2:48 world, the PhDs, they feel good about

2:51 teaching and then all of a sudden they

2:53 need to move. Maybe they're teaching

2:54 psychology. All of a sudden they need to

2:56 become therapist and that's a whole

2:58 other it revers the table. You need to

3:00 listen at this point and ask questions

3:02 to to to guide the person in the right

3:04 direction. Same with you know we say you

3:07 know Sandra used to say um sales is a

3:10 Broadway show led by psychiatrist and

3:12 and that's true when you think about it.

3:15 >> Okay. Yeah. I like that. I I really like

3:17 that too. I'm going to start using it as

3:18 like a as I'm transitioning my brain.

3:21 and I'll be like, "Okay, no more

3:22 professor, now you're a therapist." And

3:24 just like really think about that. I

3:25 think that's a great motto to make that

3:27 transition. Um, so we were talking a

3:30 little bit before the podcast and we

3:32 were talking and one thing that you said

3:33 really caught my ear and I thought it

3:35 was a great conversation to have. So,

3:36 you know, we'll tee that up. Uh, which

3:38 is, um, you know, part of being a seller

3:41 is having the hunting motion in your

3:44 day-to-day activity or at least in your

3:46 your roles and responsibilities. Um, do

3:48 you mind just kind of expanding on on

3:50 what you meant there and then we can dig

3:51 in a little bit deeper?

3:54 >> Yeah, it's it's especially in the world

3:56 of engineering actually, but but I I

3:58 find it everywhere, whether it's in the

4:00 construction business, tech engineering,

4:05 small mediumsiz businesses, they don't

4:07 have the luxury of having BDR teams.

4:10 Yeah, we could look at BDR teams as

4:14 co- callers or sometimes that's put on

4:16 the marketing team. that's generating

4:18 visibility and making all those calls

4:21 and maybe these are lower paid positions

4:25 uh from a cold call perspective but

4:27 ultimately in real life I think that um

4:32 most people find themselves having to

4:35 grow their business

4:37 >> and taking care of customers

4:39 >> and taking care of all the obstacles and

4:41 the intricacies of internal external

4:44 because the job of a salesperson is

4:46 really to to have the to be the glue

4:48 with this tension between a client who

4:52 wants a lot and and the internal of your

4:55 own company who needs to push back

4:58 because they can't do everything.

5:00 >> That's the salesperson's job. So that's

5:02 the account management part, but also

5:03 for anything that's new. Small mid-size

5:06 businesses,

5:08 the reality is the two roles don't

5:11 exist, and I don't believe they should.

5:13 >> Yeah. And would you say that um within

5:17 that SMB role like you know they don't

5:19 have the luxury for it. Would you say

5:21 that even if the team has an SDR the AE

5:23 still needs to be part of that you know

5:25 tip of the spear getting out there

5:27 having cold conversations trying to

5:29 generate brand new business.

5:32 >> Yeah. And and um

5:34 that can be made. People think you just

5:36 have to be you know a salesman to you

5:38 know to start with.

5:39 >> Yeah.

5:40 >> Naturally. And for sure some some for

5:43 some of them it's it comes more

5:44 naturally but salesmanship or especially

5:47 business development skills which which

5:49 really has to do with your own head and

5:51 your disciplines on top of all the

5:53 >> the the behaviors and and the techniques

5:56 and so on.

5:57 >> Um

5:59 if you want to grow you can't rely on

6:03 the marketing or the BDR department. I

6:06 have never seen it.

6:07 >> Yeah. I've never seen a salesperson be

6:09 successful waiting for others to feed

6:12 their pipeline.

6:14 >> It's irresponsible.

6:16 Uh and it's unrealistic and and some

6:18 people feel it's not their job.

6:22 In fact, I would say 80% of the people

6:24 that I've managed or I've seen around,

6:28 they declare it's not their job because

6:30 it's convenience to say so.

6:32 >> Yeah. And yet with a little bit of

6:34 open-mindedness and practice,

6:38 I've seen it turn around. It's really

6:40 hard. And we talked about engineers

6:41 earlier when they that when they measure

6:43 themselves and validate themselves to

6:45 knowledge

6:46 and all of the sudden you turn them over

6:48 to there's an enormous amount of

6:51 rejection and um not deterministic at

6:55 all. Or if you're project manager as

6:57 well, it's deterministic. You have

6:59 action certain time. You have a a

7:01 project that can be done in two in in

7:03 two in two months or so on and now you

7:06 go from pure business development that's

7:08 the extreme where nothing is for sure.

7:11 >> 90% or more what you're going to do

7:13 today might turn into nothing and you'll

7:16 get rejected and non unvalidated.

7:19 >> So so it can be done. That's the good

7:22 news. I really believe it can be done

7:24 but it takes the right kind of person to

7:26 feel like they're in the right mode of

7:28 uh learning.

7:30 and growth if they believe that they can

7:33 actually make more money that way.

7:35 >> Yeah. So, what if what if I'm sitting

7:38 here and I'm going, okay, I got a sales

7:40 team, I got AES, I got AM or account

7:43 executives and account managers. I've

7:45 split them in hunters and farmers. And

7:48 the reason I've done this is because

7:50 I've looked at my team and I've gone,

7:52 well, you know, this guy, he's he's not

7:54 very brave. He's not willing to get on

7:55 the phones. Like, you know, we have this

7:56 argument. He's just kind of wired that

7:58 way. And you know, this lady over here,

8:00 she's, you know, fantastic. She's happy

8:01 to pick up the phone, talk with a

8:03 stranger, and they're listening in and

8:05 they're and they're going, you know, I

8:06 don't know. I don't believe that my team

8:08 can transform. You know, what would you

8:10 say to somebody to to get them on that

8:12 path? What are the what are the

8:14 counterpoints to, well, that's just the

8:15 way they're wired. I don't want to, you

8:16 know, do that. And what are some

8:18 actionable steps to start fixing this

8:21 bifurcation that they don't have the

8:22 luxury of having?

8:26 That happens a lot too. Yeah. That

8:28 you're you're that's called,

8:30 >> you know,

8:33 >> fixing the pro fixing the pro, you know,

8:36 fixing the problem because you don't

8:37 have the right talent.

8:39 >> Yeah.

8:40 >> Right. So, so going my premise that a

8:43 salesperson needs to own their own

8:44 destiny. the account manager

8:48 uh the worst mistake is to keep him on

8:50 the same team with with some sort of

8:52 variation of expectations that's get

8:55 dysfunctional

8:57 >> to me and of course it's different in

8:59 every business to me the definition of

9:02 this let's call it farmer that's kind of

9:05 stereot or or stereot stereotypical word

9:08 uh but

9:10 it's called project manager or customer

9:12 service person

9:14 >> right Um because I I go back to the word

9:17 deterministic. You get stuff in, you

9:20 make people happy, you uh you commit to

9:24 replying to a quote or something within

9:26 a certain time, and that's the bas

9:29 that's the skill set you have. Well,

9:32 there are places for those people, but

9:34 that's not considered sales in my point

9:37 of view. It's a project manager. It's a

9:38 customer service person, whatever you

9:40 want to call it. Um, and they might be

9:43 really good at it. Here's the downside

9:45 for them. I don't think they should be

9:47 that making a lot of money.

9:49 >> Yeah.

9:50 >> Or or even close to the salespeople that

9:52 take ownership of their business.

9:55 >> Salesperson that is truly autonomous

9:57 and runs their own business, run the you

10:00 know, grow their own pipeline. They work

10:02 for themselves, not in the terms of a

10:04 lone wolf.

10:06 >> But the manager doesn't need to manage

10:09 them. They just need to give them what

10:12 they need to be successful if there are

10:14 truly obstacles. They grow their own

10:16 pipeline and they grow consistently.

10:19 Case in point, I have a have a friend

10:21 around here is amazing. And and you

10:25 know, if you feel that business some

10:27 people feel that business development is

10:29 a self-fulfilling prophecy, but it's not

10:32 for them or uh it's kind of um they're

10:36 kind of elitist about it, right? They

10:39 might have the reluctance of going to

10:41 meet people they don't know but there

10:43 there's an elitism about it. So this

10:45 individual

10:46 >> was a senior VP of sales and now decided

10:50 I think because he moved or something or

10:52 something's changed in his life decided

10:54 to go back to you know sales which he

10:57 had probably potential to make more

10:59 money than than even in his leadership

11:01 roles. and I see him go, this guy um

11:06 he, you know, one month he said he was

11:08 working on a big deal. So that's that

11:11 took a lot of time to close the deal and

11:13 was very complex and he he won it of

11:15 course and like gee my pipeline is low

11:18 now. talking we're not we're talking

11:19 about the next month and he said to me I

11:23 I I thought he was nuts or he was just

11:25 full of you know what he said gee I'm

11:29 going to start making a 100 calls a day

11:32 >> starting Monday

11:35 now of course I you know things happen

11:37 but a couple weeks later I asked him

11:39 how's it going says you know I'm I'm 32

11:42 actions uh behind on my my hotspot but

11:46 think about that 32 too. If you had a

11:48 bunch of actions between the calls and

11:50 the the sequences, you know, is he's

11:53 probably missing by 10%. Or something

11:55 like this.

11:55 >> Yeah.

11:56 >> But it's the mindset and he's the one

11:58 declaring, you know, I'm not waiting for

12:00 people to to run my business or to make

12:03 me, you know,

12:05 >> to make for me to make more money.

12:08 >> That's not up to them. It's up to me to

12:10 grow my business so I can make a lot of

12:11 money. Well, it comes down to

12:14 >> 10% high behind still puts them at 90

12:17 calls a dayish, right? You know, maybe

12:20 there's other activities or whatever

12:21 that's falling into putting them behind,

12:23 but I I mean, you know, I don't make 90

12:25 I don't make 90 phone calls every day

12:27 and like that's more than I do and I

12:29 also know that I'm doing a lot more than

12:31 another other people are doing. So,

12:33 >> yeah,

12:33 >> I like but still

12:35 >> it's techniques. It's not just

12:36 discipline, it's the technique in this

12:38 case. He figured out a way to use his

12:40 tools

12:41 >> to, you know, hire filters like I

12:44 sometimes I I waste time in between to

12:46 prepare to look at the person and then

12:48 write some notes after. When you think

12:49 about that, then one call becomes five

12:51 minutes

12:52 >> or 10 for him. He just he's got his

12:54 script going, he's got his tools going,

12:56 follows the script, pump. Of course,

12:59 these are dials, right?

13:01 >> So, one out of 10 answer. Uh and and

13:05 that's why that's why he says he wants

13:07 to talk to 10 people in the day. So he

13:08 needs to make a 100 calls.

13:10 >> Yeah. So you'd mentioned

13:11 >> and this guy is a senior guy take this

13:13 guy's a senior guy taking care of

13:16 accounts large accounts in the

13:17 organization.

13:18 >> So says geez has got I got all the

13:21 issues internally and all the requests

13:23 externally and I got these quotes I got

13:26 to do but I'm going to block that time.

13:29 >> Yeah. Well, because he knows because

13:30 he's led a team that if what he does

13:33 today is going to affect his pipeline in

13:35 six months. And so he's not leaning on a

13:38 oh well I'm busy today. It's like yeah

13:40 but if I want to be busy in six months I

13:42 got to stay busy with this you know lead

13:44 generation today. Um one of the things

13:47 that you had said uh before was um you

13:51 know at some point in time an account

13:52 manager just becomes a project manager.

13:55 uh where would you draw that line? Like

13:57 what amount of business development

13:59 activity and what does it look like that

14:01 actually takes them out of just being a

14:03 project manager? And I actually really

14:04 agree with that because I was a project

14:06 manager and then I led a team of project

14:08 managers and we were responsible for all

14:10 the renewals. I mean, sure, the the AE

14:12 team would be brought in to like

14:14 finalize the contract, but like the the

14:18 monthly conversations, the weekly

14:19 conversations, the scoping a project,

14:22 the being aware and bringing it back to

14:24 the AE, my project management team did

14:26 that. Like all the renewals flowed

14:27 through us. And so I was like I always

14:29 said we we deserve a commission, but it

14:31 sounds like you disagree with that. And

14:33 then the the AE team should have been

14:35 more responsible. Um but what would be

14:38 your um your uh your line where

14:41 somebody's not the uh is actually

14:44 getting out of the project management

14:45 and then has earned their way back into

14:48 that sales title and what are those

14:49 activities look like?

14:51 >> It's a good question. So you think about

14:52 let's say we talk about customer service

14:54 mindset.

14:55 >> Yeah. project management sides mindset

14:58 which has a little bit more internal

14:59 coordination and and uh and uh

15:02 coordinating people and and uh

15:04 proactively uh setting actions and a

15:08 salesperson. So those are three

15:10 different layers. I think if you wake up

15:13 in the morning and you you say to

15:15 yourself, I'm going to serve people

15:18 well.

15:19 >> I I'm going to wait for something to

15:21 happen and I'm going to make sure I

15:23 execute it well. That's definitely

15:25 customer service and there are people

15:26 that are really good at that.

15:27 >> Yeah.

15:28 >> Project manager is is an an addition to

15:31 that, but actually they need to be

15:32 disruptors a bit. So sometimes they need

15:34 to make people unhappy pushing for

15:36 getting somebody to do something and

15:39 that's their job. But they're very

15:40 actionoriented. Nothing wrong with that.

15:42 But we have a determinant deterministic

15:45 action. We assign somebody to do it and

15:47 we follow up to the final dates, right?

15:50 uh if that's what they feel accomplished

15:53 with,

15:55 >> they must stay there because you got to

15:57 people put the people in the right place

15:58 with their motivation in the morning

16:00 >> is to be a good coordinator and keeping

16:03 people accountable

16:04 >> for specific deterministic actions. Then

16:07 that's a project manager. Those skills,

16:09 by the way, apply also to the

16:11 salesperson. somebody that that be goes

16:14 from project management to sales, they

16:17 already got a good um a good set of

16:19 skills for that.

16:21 The salesperson is the mindset. We

16:23 talked about it earlier, the mindset of

16:25 I'm not going to wait for somebody to

16:27 grow, for me to grow and make money.

16:30 >> So that's the concept of um not so much

16:33 deadline but goal centered mindset. And

16:39 the best salespeople, they know their

16:41 goals,

16:43 whether it's the end of the month or the

16:45 shorter the better. Uh they know their

16:47 goals for the month is is kind of how at

16:49 least the numbers, they're completely

16:52 focused on that one. Whatever that is,

16:54 bookings or or something like this, they

16:56 know their goal. Every single day they

16:59 wake up, how do I make that goal?

17:02 regardless of the nondeterministic

17:05 action that they had to do. And

17:06 hopefully they roll it back to some

17:08 daily actions and everything there is

17:10 not just prospecting because they need

17:12 to do account management. That's the

17:14 kind of the project management type of

17:16 thing. But they have certainly more

17:18 prioritization as to what gets them to

17:20 their goals because the definition of

17:22 the sales guy is not to be a customer

17:24 service person.

17:27 >> It's to help the company achieve their

17:29 goals.

17:30 >> Yeah. and more

17:32 and for the salesperson to want to make

17:34 money

17:37 when when you don't get into that

17:39 mindset it get proliferates across the

17:41 sales organization that you just I mean

17:44 even the companies they put budgets that

17:46 are you know okay we want to grow 6%

17:49 next year because you know we're

17:51 counting on the account base to grow uh

17:53 and then we miss it and then the the the

17:55 gold is lower the next year and so on

17:58 and so on that's kind of kind of

17:59 mediocrity

18:00 And the sales people get into that as

18:02 well. They keep not looking at,

18:05 >> you know.

18:05 >> Yeah. Yeah.

18:06 >> And what I found amazing is that they

18:08 have most of pay plans allow you to make

18:10 a lot of money.

18:13 And the right sales guys, they find a

18:16 way to make a lot of money. That's what

18:18 it comes down to. They want to make a

18:20 lot of money. And you probably want that

18:21 guy that wants more money than the other

18:23 guy because that person is going to

18:25 bring you more than that extra money you

18:27 pay them in my point of view. Yeah.

18:30 Yeah. So, I mean, I like that

18:32 distinction just based on like not like

18:35 a here's the job description that I'm

18:38 going to write out all these things.

18:39 It's like customer service is to like,

18:42 you know, react, appease, settle like

18:44 fires, like a project manager is to

18:47 maintain, and then a salesperson is to

18:49 grow. And so as long as you're in like

18:51 that growth aspect of like the business

18:55 that really adds you on the sales team

18:56 where it's like and you know totally

18:58 shoot this down if I'm wrong but if you

19:00 have like an account management title

19:02 and you have say five strategic accounts

19:04 and you've landed with them if you spend

19:06 the whole year trying to expand and grow

19:08 the business within that business and

19:10 you're not just waiting for things to

19:12 come to you but you're going you guys

19:13 have another facility there you have

19:15 this business unit like I'm going to

19:17 break into that business unit. Would you

19:19 consider that you know that person that

19:21 is sales or would you still bucket that

19:23 and say ah it's still not going to

19:25 enough growth at this point in time and

19:27 that's just natural you know ma

19:30 maintenance naturally will get us into

19:32 that you know business. I think that I

19:34 think that distinction is uh even for

19:37 the same title is that mindset I

19:39 mentioned about is this person goal

19:40 oriented and growth oriented

19:42 dollar-wise,

19:43 >> right?

19:44 >> And and arguably if this person says I

19:47 got potential to grow in my five

19:49 accounts.

19:50 >> Yeah,

19:50 >> that's kind of the um the expand version

19:54 of the strategy because the strategy for

19:56 growth, you know, we talk about new

19:57 logos. Fine. That's the hardest thing to

19:59 do. It's it has long-term impact to grow

20:03 the the company's customer base because

20:05 you're always going to lose some. You

20:06 need new ones. So, that's fundamental.

20:08 It's the hardest one to do.

20:11 >> It's probably the least productive but

20:12 higher impact long term. Fine.

20:15 >> Um, but there's also a strategy, at

20:17 least the short short term, to say this

20:19 account has growth. They're going to

20:21 grow. They're going to need more things

20:22 or I can sell new products into it.

20:25 >> So, back to the mindset. If the person

20:28 is relentless, if that's their person's

20:30 strategy 100% of growing their existing

20:33 account base, they better be taking

20:35 actions today all day long to make sure

20:38 they stay stay focused on the on the

20:40 prize as opposed to well, I know it's

20:42 there. I'll wait for the client to just

20:44 come up with the opportunity or I'll

20:46 vaguely kind of probe and and monitor as

20:49 opposed to being proactive to to assert

20:52 themselves to say, I want to grow I want

20:54 to grow more business in here. uh how do

20:57 I do that? So there's a whole I mean

20:59 then you manage relationships you

21:00 understand decision makers the pain

21:02 points you continue to apply the sales

21:04 techniques after you win the client and

21:07 and most of the time again the

21:10 average salesperson which is a large

21:13 majority of them they go back to oh well

21:17 they know me they like me I like this

21:18 guy and that becomes a danger right if

21:21 it's that relationship or what really

21:24 what it's called is needing to be liked

21:27 That's where they think, you know,

21:28 sometimes they come up and say that they

21:31 have a good relationship and they're

21:32 controlling the account. Then you

21:34 realize that

21:36 assert themselves and ask the tough

21:38 questions just like you're supposed to

21:39 do when you're prospecting with a new

21:41 client.

21:42 >> If that's not happening, you don't have

21:44 control of the account.

21:45 >> Yeah.

21:45 >> And you probably you probably don't have

21:48 you don't have the ability to access the

21:50 real decision makers. You might be

21:51 comfortable with the person that becomes

21:53 a gatekeeper in the end. It it almost

21:56 seems like one of the things that as a

21:58 sales leader you have to be doing is if

22:00 somebody is, you know, continuing to

22:03 account manage one of their accounts,

22:05 you have to almost like make sure that

22:06 you're diving into the numbers and make

22:08 sure that the revenue growth isn't just

22:10 because that company is growing and it's

22:11 actually because you like you've

22:14 distinctly associated an action to the

22:17 expansion like hey you know could they

22:19 call me up they go Austin will take

22:20 another 10 seats. It's like, all right,

22:22 did Austin get another 10 seats or did

22:25 the growth of that business get another

22:26 10 seat? And then, you know, would that

22:29 be something where you'd actually

22:29 qualify that as that still counts as

22:32 growth oriented or would you say no,

22:34 that falls into the project management?

22:35 You're just adding seats. I need more

22:38 activity.

22:39 >> Yeah. I think you the biggest mistake is

22:41 to kind of segment too much and not give

22:42 the there's so many people in

22:44 organization that say, "Wow, the sales

22:45 guy didn't do that." Well,

22:47 >> okay. If he if he really is not

22:49 impactful to his to to the growth of

22:52 this business of this particular

22:53 account, okay, he should be that person

22:55 should be out. A lot of people have no

22:58 clue what sales is all about. They will

23:00 because they're deterministic

23:03 mindset. Uh they feel that the

23:06 salesperson hasn't done things. So you

23:07 don't want to you don't want to nickpick

23:09 what's u uh what's reward or not.

23:13 >> Um

23:14 >> and that kind

23:15 >> that would be my answer to that.

23:16 >> Yeah. So, it's almost like saying you're

23:18 dismissing the fact that as that company

23:21 is growing, the salesperson is

23:22 responsible for showing that you can

23:24 grow with them. And so, like to have the

23:26 conversation. So, they're not adding 10

23:28 seats just because it happens to be

23:30 there. They're adding 10 seats because

23:32 they've been talking to the salesperson

23:34 and they're comfortable with saying this

23:35 is the solution that grows alongside us.

23:38 And that relationship and that continued

23:40 control of account by the the

23:42 salesperson is what's driving that. It's

23:45 not just because I just have to fill out

23:47 an order form, therefore there's no that

23:50 that's too deterministic and not taking

23:52 in the account of the rest of

23:54 relationship.

23:55 >> Yeah.

23:56 >> Okay.

23:56 >> Yeah, I agree with that. Um when you

23:58 think about So you talked about um you

24:01 know, how do you grow and what's better?

24:03 It really doesn't matter. Growth is

24:04 growth. A dollar is a dollar.

24:06 >> Yes.

24:06 >> There's only two things in life, by the

24:08 way, that are fair. A minute's a minute

24:10 and a dollar is a dollar.

24:12 >> [laughter]

24:12 >> So it's it's what you do what you do

24:14 with those minutes to get a dollar. Then

24:16 then that's that's really what's becomes

24:17 un unfair to some people's point of view

24:20 and fair from others because you did

24:23 what it took to make more money. That's

24:24 business and that's sales. U but go back

24:28 to our topic

24:30 when you what when we talk about sales

24:32 strategies or growth strategies is

24:34 really it's pretty simple at the high

24:36 level. You're trying to keep clients.

24:38 You're trying to acquire new clients. to

24:40 trying to retain them

24:42 >> or re reacquire rather. So if you lost

24:45 them at least you know them and you try

24:46 to reacquire or expand them. This is the

24:48 only four areas at Sandler we call them

24:51 cares other people call it something

24:52 else right? K A R E. Um

24:58 the key I think where really becomes

25:00 effective we talked about having the

25:02 salesperson being you know running their

25:04 own business. I think you just say as a

25:08 manager or as a CEO say our strategy is

25:12 K A R E.

25:13 >> Yeah.

25:14 >> Okay. A combination of those things

25:16 based on you know the CFO gets into it

25:18 and say based on what we think our

25:20 strategy is we probably want uh 20% from

25:23 acquire

25:25 uh 20% from uh re reacquire

25:29 um and 50% from expand and and uh and so

25:32 on. So puts the put numbers into each of

25:35 the four categories. Maybe one of the

25:36 categories zero, but then you throw it

25:39 to the sales guy because everybody's got

25:41 their own territory. How are you going

25:42 to grow? And the only thing you got left

25:44 at that point

25:48 is to keep them accountable what they

25:50 say.

25:51 >> Yeah.

25:51 >> If the person if the salesperson say you

25:53 might not agree at first you might have

25:54 a discussion but the salesperson says

25:57 you know what this year I'm not going to

25:58 spend effort on

26:00 it's kind of a bad answer but but let's

26:02 take the principle of the strategy. I am

26:05 going to grow this year and the next

26:07 three years at these at my existing

26:10 accounts whether it be 10 20 depending

26:12 on the business 100 uh where there's

26:16 probably 10% of them are topheavy or

26:18 maybe 20% are topheavy I'm going to grow

26:21 there because

26:23 one they're going to grow I know that

26:25 because of the market they're in and two

26:27 I can I can win new products and here's

26:30 how I'm going to do this.

26:31 >> Yeah. Then you just keep them

26:33 accountable to that. You know, they come

26:35 back every month. They say, "Yeah, I've

26:37 uh my pipeline is growing this account

26:40 or and I identify this opportunity and

26:42 this is what I will do next month and so

26:45 on and so on." Uh and all you do is keep

26:47 them accountable to the pipeline number

26:51 >> because that's the common denominator is

26:54 you first of all there's a lot of

26:55 debate. Everybody wants to debate as to

26:57 how you measure this and that. I don't

26:59 care. Pick a pick a way to measure. make

27:02 sure it's in it's easily measurable in

27:04 CRM and hopefully AI can find the number

27:06 anyways. Um,

27:10 and all agree on that definition and

27:12 then that's all you measure. Um, you

27:15 might eventually coach the person that

27:17 maybe going on existing account alone

27:20 will will catch them eventually, but

27:24 that's that's the productive

27:26 conversation between the manager and the

27:28 salesperson.

27:30 >> Yeah. And I like that uh like taking

27:33 that overall strategy and being like

27:35 here's a guideline set of numbers but

27:37 they're not forcing everyone because you

27:38 might have somebody who's looking at

27:40 their set of accounts and they're like

27:42 well I'm not going to you know have my

27:44 clients churn at a 30% rate this year so

27:46 I don't need to attain 30% to make up

27:49 for that. Now, I might still go for a

27:51 30% attain, but that person

27:53 >> can't be part of the plan,

27:54 >> right? But they might be able to look at

27:56 that and go like, "All right, like I

27:57 know that we have a high like churn

27:59 rate, but my customers are sticking

28:01 around, so I'm going to, you know, maybe

28:03 focus a little bit somewhere else than,

28:05 you know, trying to just purely new logo

28:07 replace the expected churn." Now,

28:10 putting that on them and holding them

28:12 accountable, I think is great because

28:13 then if it does happen, you can go,

28:15 "Well, hey, we told you you should have

28:17 been focused in this area. you made a

28:19 judgment call based on your

28:20 relationships, you missed. Like it

28:23 happens, you know, people go wrong. But

28:25 then being able to like let them have

28:27 some, you know, ownership over what

28:29 their strategy is going to be so that

28:31 when they get up in the morning to get

28:32 after it, you know, they're like, well,

28:35 I own this. This is my decision. I'm

28:36 going to make sure I'm following through

28:38 on, you know, the things that I've

28:39 decided and learned from like my

28:41 relationships.

28:44 that now we get we're getting into a lot

28:46 of situation but I I get

28:50 I'm pretty big about the whole concept

28:52 of plants right so so I really don't

28:56 care what it is because unless you're a

28:59 manager that keeps the accountable

29:01 through punish through punishment right

29:03 through to through a perception of

29:04 negative emotions if they don't execute

29:07 it and so on but I'd rather I'd rather

29:11 say hey yeah you telling me you're going

29:13 to grow this way. Great. Have you

29:15 thought of this and that? Becomes a

29:16 discussion to make sure the person's

29:18 looking at everything and not being kind

29:19 of lazy in their in their plan and you

29:21 challenge them a bit. Stick to that. Go

29:24 execute.

29:26 >> Mhm.

29:26 >> That's the measure of success. You go

29:28 execute what you said you're going to

29:30 execute and if it doesn't work, you just

29:33 adjust.

29:34 >> Yeah.

29:35 >> Right. So is that is can you set an

29:38 environment where people feel

29:39 comfortable saying my boss trusts that

29:41 what I said is decent at this point in

29:45 time he lets me execute maybe helps me

29:47 along the way and then if it really

29:49 doesn't work you give ourel a timeline 3

29:51 months four months and say hey uh is

29:54 this working for you do you need to

29:56 adjust and then you know we'll we'll

29:58 move on but people look at plans as so

30:03 rigid and maybe there's leader ship that

30:05 drives through negative punishments.

30:09 >> Sometimes it's more subtle than that and

30:12 then then everything falls apart and

30:14 then everybody plans to plans make sure

30:16 that they don't they undercommit right

30:18 under commit overd deliver but there's

30:20 there's a limit to that right

30:22 >> under commitment is just a is actually

30:26 what I think is a behavior based on

30:29 fearing fear of failure.

30:32 >> Yeah. And and the worst situation

30:37 mindset of a salesperson is hesitation.

30:40 >> Yeah.

30:41 >> You do not want your salespeople to be

30:43 in hesitation mode in anything they do.

30:47 >> Mhm.

30:47 >> Um so that positive mindset and that

30:50 encouragement and helping to coaching to

30:53 adjust on the plan

30:56 always got to grow uh is really a

30:59 testament to good leadership.

31:01 >> Yeah. As you're saying this, I'm really

31:04 curious, you know, how you would like

31:06 recommend people handle this exact

31:09 situation because I have this big

31:12 problem of being like too transparent

31:15 internally and externally with like, oh,

31:17 I can get that done in a week. And then

31:19 somebody would be like, dude, then say

31:20 two weeks because that means if you do

31:23 it in a week, they're going to be like

31:25 super excited about it. And it's like,

31:27 well, I want to be ambitious. I do want

31:29 to drive for the week. I do think that

31:32 even with the mistakes that or like the

31:34 uh the the delays that um we're going to

31:37 uncover, it is going to still take a

31:39 week on that. Um and then I can also

31:42 just be like, "Hey, here's what we

31:43 think." But then like we can put like an

31:44 ultimate deadline and kind of, you know,

31:46 there's, you know, some things we're

31:48 setting expectations and timelines and

31:50 operational stuff. Like I get where you

31:52 might want to say that, but when you're

31:53 talking about, you know, with your sales

31:55 team, if somebody's like, "I really

31:57 think I could grow 20% this year." But

31:59 then they go, "Well, I'm going to say

32:01 10%." Because now I'm managing

32:04 expectations and I'm not being like

32:05 radically transparent with it. Um, you

32:08 know, maybe I'm pushing it too far and

32:10 just saying, well, why not just full

32:11 send into 20% and I have an expectation

32:14 with the sales leader that we both know

32:16 this is the full send. I'm really going

32:18 for it and if I fall short, none of us

32:20 are going to be disappointed. Um, you

32:22 know, is that maybe taking a step too

32:24 far or is that kind of in the direction

32:26 that you're thinking? like how would you

32:28 handle that situation when we are saying

32:31 don't lead by punishment lead by you

32:33 know challenge or whatnot

32:36 I I'll stick it to to to to brass stacks

32:39 is is um

32:42 if you commit to yourself on something

32:46 do it don't overthink it

32:49 >> again if the environment is the manager

32:52 lets you at least today lets you make

32:55 commitments And um and maybe if it's

32:58 time allocation

33:01 uh then okay you missed it at least do

33:03 you know why and then we move forward

33:05 right the end result is the same the

33:07 person won't be able maybe won't be able

33:09 to achieve it if it's because it was not

33:11 a priority

33:13 classic project management is are these

33:16 things priorities

33:18 >> for all the members in a project because

33:20 I come from project management as well

33:22 all members in a project keep missing

33:24 deadlines it's there's A couple reasons

33:26 for that. There's no strong project

33:28 manager

33:29 or people don't think it's important or

33:32 leadership have led them to think that

33:34 it's okay to not achieve. So, so if it's

33:37 less lack of motivation, you got to find

33:39 why all these actions are are not being

33:41 done. If talking about a prospecting

33:44 action, you know, then it's about

33:46 reaching out to x amount of people in in

33:49 a week and a half or a week versus two

33:51 weeks.

33:53 Um but sometimes if if you do need to

33:57 meet 10 people in two weeks or actually

34:01 you felt that you need to start meeting

34:02 10 people in one week and you can't get

34:05 there then it's might be just a matter

34:08 of priorities or efficiency also we

34:11 talked about

34:12 >> my friend here that's able to find the

34:14 techn use the technology to make 100

34:16 calls a day versus me sometimes I I do

34:19 struggle to get 30 even when I try

34:21 harder. over a three-hour period, my

34:23 time block.

34:25 That's pure efficiency. Like the minute

34:28 is the minute, the dollar is the dollar.

34:30 >> Uh and that becomes productive. If

34:32 you're able to coach the person to say,

34:35 "Fine, you missed it. You're not doing

34:37 how can I help?" Or what are you going

34:38 to do or do you think it's actually

34:40 important? Right. If people don't think

34:42 it's important and you realize it's not,

34:44 then okay, then stop doing it.

34:47 >> Yeah.

34:47 >> Um

34:49 >> I keep calling.

34:49 >> Yeah. Go ahead.

34:51 I was just going to say I mean like I

34:52 think that's such a perfect example of

34:54 you know your friend saying I'm going to

34:55 do 100 and then hitting 90 and then

34:57 being like I missed my goal but 90 is

34:59 pretty good right and then if somebody

35:02 came along and said I'm going to do 50

35:04 you'd be like that's still a pretty good

35:05 number. I think a lot of people would

35:06 say 50 is still pretty good for a day

35:07 for somebody who isn't just an SD or not

35:10 sorry not just isn't just an STR but has

35:12 other responsibilities beyond the

35:14 calling and they you know they get to 50

35:17 and because their goal is 50 they stop

35:19 but because his goal is 100 he got to 90

35:22 and it was like he may have fallen short

35:24 but because he had a stretch goal and

35:26 there was an understanding of it being a

35:28 stretch goal he did you know 40 more

35:30 calls than he would have if he had put

35:33 an attainable goal that would have

35:35 looked still pretty good on paper,

35:37 >> right? It never stops, right? Companies

35:41 need to grow.

35:42 >> Yeah.

35:43 >> All the time.

35:44 >> Yeah.

35:45 >> And we talked about growth mindset

35:47 earlier, right? The the learning

35:48 mindset. I think the word growth here is

35:51 is applied to learning, but the the the

35:54 learning mindset also directly applies

35:57 to growing the business without adding

36:00 new salespeople.

36:01 >> We just kind of talked about that. Um

36:05 and I draw this from manufacturing. I

36:07 came from manufacturing as well, right?

36:09 So they meet so they have on-time

36:12 delivery and quality. The ultimate two

36:13 measures that are kind of

36:15 counterbalancing each other is quality

36:17 and and and on-time delivery and lead

36:20 time. So you want to deliver something

36:22 as fast as you know the faster and

36:24 faster possible and at least at the time

36:26 you said to the client you were going to

36:28 deliver but do it at 100% quality,

36:32 right? that you don't you don't deliver

36:34 crap.

36:36 So in manufacturing based on the Toyota

36:38 princip Toyota principles and so on,

36:40 you're always going towards that lean

36:44 sigma improvement, right? So if you're

36:47 if your on-time delivery is 80 today,

36:49 well, let's make it 82 uh for next

36:52 month. How can you get to 82? And then

36:54 it's a challenge

36:56 >> and what do you got to do to get to 82?

36:58 Because it's critical to the business.

37:00 We might be losing business. then 85

37:02 then then eventually you know you can't

37:04 get 90 99% on time delivery in most most

37:07 businesses unless you completely buffer

37:10 your lead times but then people want

37:12 things fast as well

37:14 >> all kinds of you can't so you got to

37:15 continuously improve and that's what we

37:17 call continuous improvement in

37:18 manufacturing true for sales people too

37:22 >> because most sales people get satisfied

37:25 maybe they make too much money for doing

37:26 nothing some of them right

37:28 >> um they get satisfied with the skill

37:31 they have today, they get satisfied with

37:33 the behaviors they have today and uh and

37:36 that prevents growth by definition.

37:39 >> Yeah.

37:40 >> So if the person says earlier example,

37:44 I'm going to use the tools so I can make

37:47 in the same amount of time more calls.

37:50 It's a great example to say, you know,

37:52 to today is 100 if the guy can actually

37:55 achieve it. tomorrow is 110 and 120 and

37:58 maybe technology is going to take us to

38:00 a point of of course you you add this

38:02 automation without losing the human

38:03 touch, right? Um and then you get

38:07 productive

38:09 reachouts to clients more and more and

38:11 more never using the human touch because

38:14 the the right salesperson for the

38:16 significant opportunities are not going

38:18 to be done by AI.

38:20 >> Yeah, agreed on that. People buy from

38:22 people. People make decisions on

38:24 business and the real salespeople will

38:27 will reach out to those people for

38:28 significant impact.

38:30 >> So, we've run over time, but if you

38:32 don't mind, I have two more questions.

38:34 If if you're willing to to entertain

38:36 them,

38:37 >> it's up to you. It's your time.

38:39 >> I got no I'll ask the two questions

38:40 then. So we'll start with the first one

38:42 which is at the very beginning of this

38:44 we started talking about you know if you

38:45 have this team that is composed of you

38:49 know hunters farmers and you've listened

38:51 in and you go okay I do agree with like

38:53 this everyone needs to have a hunter

38:55 mindset and maybe maybe the farmer still

38:59 is a hunter what whatever that is right

39:01 but they not having everyone growing and

39:03 some people are more of a project

39:04 manager I got my team of 10 people and I

39:09 want to convert into what you're talking

39:10 about um how would you say like start

39:14 the process of you know getting the team

39:17 changed maybe reassigning people to

39:20 other roles in the company if they're

39:22 not willing to make the change and then

39:24 moving forward in this uh sales team is

39:28 the growth team um mindset

39:33 >> I would say you start with clear

39:35 expectations let's say you have you you

39:37 have you who you have you set clear

39:39 expectations

39:40 What are the measures? What are the

39:42 definitions? What is the sales process?

39:46 Because we determine at this point in

39:47 time that's how we work.

39:50 >> It's not cats in stone. But today I

39:52 don't want to hear debates about whether

39:54 we should make prospecting or not. I'm

39:57 telling you my expectations is yeah your

39:59 account managers let's say it's a you

40:02 mentioned ambidextrous before before our

40:04 calls, right? So you guys are

40:06 ambidextrous, but you can you can bat,

40:08 you know, right on uh you can bat right

40:11 80% of the time, but you need to go bat

40:12 left, you know, 20% of the time. That's

40:14 what it feels like to do the prospecting

40:16 if they've never done it. Expectations

40:18 is 8020. Let's say that's the chosen

40:21 maybe the other one's 7030 or depending

40:23 on the strategy.

40:24 >> Yeah.

40:25 >> And then you have to decide and and work

40:27 with the person. Everybody's at a

40:28 different level for that. If they

40:30 haven't made if they haven't done a

40:32 business development mindset but they

40:33 want to

40:35 >> Yeah.

40:35 >> then they have to practice again because

40:38 sales people needs to be athletes.

40:41 >> Mhm. [clears throat]

40:42 >> A lot of sales people don't go practice

40:44 their stuff and they don't go apply

40:45 their stuff. They just go wing it

40:48 because they have good personalities and

40:49 they're quick on their feet and so that

40:51 only goes so far. So then you need to

40:54 decide and of course we're sales

40:56 trainers. So, so, so I believe in that

40:58 it can be trained.

41:01 >> It can [clears throat] be trained.

41:02 There's come, there's some awareness,

41:04 you know, opportunities. There's some

41:06 behavior opportunity if people are not

41:07 used to being accountable to disciplines

41:10 and maybe personally they don't have

41:11 personal disciplines, but that that is

41:13 good for their own life if they develop

41:15 some disciplines as well. And of course,

41:17 some techniques to be more productive.

41:18 We don't have to reinvent the wheel.

41:20 Sandler is not the only guy, right? So,

41:23 but pick something that you know works

41:26 and that's kind of what your trainer or

41:28 maybe your manager knows to say this is

41:30 how you do it. So, they are willing but

41:33 they're not able today. So, you work on

41:35 that element. So, at least you say the

41:37 attitude is there. This person's willing

41:39 to grow and you take that person from

41:41 there.

41:43 The worst case at that point, the people

41:45 that should probably leave the team is

41:46 the people that are just

41:49 not accepting

41:51 >> this expectation and definition of

41:54 things and and the cadence of things.

41:57 The cadence we talked about earlier, a

41:59 minute's a minute, a dollar is a dollar.

42:01 There's no debate on that, right? And

42:04 it's that's what I say when I lead a a

42:07 sales meeting. I don't want to have

42:09 people talk. It's like a minute a

42:11 minute. A dollar is a dollar. What's

42:13 your dollars? And how fast are you going

42:14 to go? Um, so, so the unwillingness can

42:19 be identified. Of course, nobody's going

42:21 to say, I don't want to do this. And

42:23 then there's sometimes that group effect

42:24 of, you know, maybe it's okay if we

42:26 don't do it. We're just going to do the

42:28 same as before, but we're going to, you

42:29 know, put lipstick on a pig and and and

42:32 maybe the manager is going to buy into

42:33 it. And then it comes down to the

42:34 courage of the manager to say, okay, I

42:37 had expectations. can't you can't fire

42:40 your whole team. You have to be able to

42:42 be positive and believe in people and

42:44 some people are just not a right boat.

42:46 Maybe the maybe the job by by doing

42:48 these expectation it actually by default

42:51 becomes a new job definition and maybe

42:53 people don't want to accept that.

42:55 >> Yeah.

42:55 >> Maybe they join the team under the

42:57 expectation that they had a job

42:59 definition but now I arrive and it's

43:01 like well that's not the definition

43:03 anymore. Sorry. because before the job

43:05 didn't efficient before was not

43:07 achieving our goals.

43:09 >> Um so then then you have to make tough

43:11 decisions and and most people don't they

43:14 don't want to recognize it. They don't

43:15 want to have that tough pro uh

43:18 improvement you know discussion and and

43:20 eventually tough decisions.

43:22 >> I mean growth is on the other side of

43:24 being uncomfortable being in you know

43:26 pain doesn't have to be physical pain

43:28 but you know that like changing things

43:30 and everything. So if you want to grow,

43:31 you've got to get outside of what you're

43:34 comfortable with, right?

43:35 >> Well, management is a whole other skill

43:38 and and and a whole other planet. And in

43:40 fact, that's another probably another

43:42 discussion for another time, the sales

43:43 managers, right? Who

43:46 >> because they were good salesmen, they

43:47 think they can be good sales managers,

43:49 but it's not their job anymore. Um but

43:51 anyway, so so

43:52 >> I think that goes for any any any role.

43:55 The role and the delivery of that role

43:58 and then the management of that role are

43:59 two different things. Doesn't mean you

44:01 can't be good at both, but it doesn't

44:03 mean that if you're good at the first

44:04 one, you're good at the second. And I've

44:06 actually met managers who are terrible

44:08 at the first, but were great at managing

44:10 the team that was executing.

44:12 >> Correct.

44:13 >> Yeah. Think about the great coaches.

44:17 uh

44:18 you know some of them were average

44:20 players, average players and they became

44:22 great coaches. It might have been true

44:25 for uh Gino at Yukon for example, right?

44:28 >> Um and and the other side, look at Wayne

44:32 Gretzky, right? The greatest of all time

44:34 in hockey, a Canadian, right?

44:36 >> And then he was not great as a coach. I

44:39 don't think he liked it actually. And

44:41 and that's okay, right?

44:43 >> Yeah. All right, last question for you.

44:46 Uh, this is a good long episode with a

44:48 ton of good stuff in it. And so I would

44:50 encourage somebody who's hearing this

44:52 should listen to the whole part whole of

44:53 it. Um, but if there's just one thing

44:55 that you're like, please take away from

44:57 this conversation, you know, this is

45:00 really what I want you to go apply to

45:01 your business or apply to what you're

45:03 doing. Um, what would that be from this

45:05 convo?

45:07 >> Stop thinking, just do it.

45:09 >> That's great. All right. I'm not going

45:10 to make you expand because I completely

45:12 agree with it. Cool. Well, I appreciate

45:14 your time today, Gee. Uh, we'll have to

45:16 do another one sometime.

45:18 >> Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

45:19 >> All right.