Rene Zamora on Listening, Sales Coaching, and Team Performance

Transcript

0:00 All

0:02 right, we have another episode of

0:04 Tailwind. Today we're joined by Renee

0:05 Zamora. Renee, tell us a little bit more

0:07 about yourself.

0:09 >> Okay. [clears throat] Hey, thanks. First

0:10 off, thanks for having me on, Austin.

0:12 >> Of course.

0:13 >> You know, our little pre-con

0:14 conversations have already got me got me

0:16 excited. I think we're going to have a

0:18 great um great conversation, which is I

0:20 don't know, I think more interesting

0:22 than

0:23 >> Yeah.

0:23 >> a uh a promo page or something like

0:26 that.

0:27 >> That's going to have some fun with it.

0:28 Yeah. I mean, we were just talking about

0:30 um

0:31 >> you know, different industries and if

0:32 you need to really overhaul and change

0:35 and be completely different when you're

0:36 approaching them and you had an opinion

0:39 that I was really interested and I said,

0:40 "Hey, let's hit record and let's hear

0:41 about it." So, tell a little bit more.

0:44 >> Yeah, sure. Let me blend the two

0:45 questions together. So, you know, our

0:47 business, how I started this uh I've

0:48 been in sales and sales marketing my

0:50 whole life.

0:51 >> Actually, five years I was um you know,

0:54 in uh training uh between 2001 and 2006.

0:58 I had a I made had my own training

1:00 program and I taught high performance

1:02 team leadership training but before that

1:04 it was all sales sales leadership and

1:06 then in 2006 um sales manager now came

1:09 to be and u it was because I was looking

1:11 for a new direction wasn't because I saw

1:13 some amazing opportunity I just wanted

1:16 something else to do so I started

1:18 managing teams and what's kind of given

1:20 me this perspective about your question

1:23 about like is there different sales

1:25 approaches and you know styles to go

1:28 with different industries is that we've

1:30 worked in over 70, you know, companies

1:32 and probably probably now over 45 50

1:34 different industries.

1:36 >> We we're never been niche focused. It's

1:39 our sales leadership and sales

1:41 management approach [clears throat] of

1:42 fractional management has just been it's

1:46 agnostic to industry.

1:48 >> And why? Because this is why I don't

1:51 think there's a lot of difference in

1:52 most sales approaches is that we either

1:56 have um we are just as sales people

2:00 we're just trying to help someone make a

2:01 decision.

2:02 >> Yeah.

2:02 >> Truly that. So the more skilled someone

2:05 can get at you know first off having the

2:07 right um I used to call it grounded beam

2:11 place where you're coming from your

2:13 intent a lot of different terms today

2:15 you know where you're coming from. If

2:16 you're coming from a place of like, I

2:18 want to help this person make a quality

2:20 decision and as long as I have a good

2:23 enough offer, that decision might come

2:26 my way, but it might not, you know, but

2:28 they know if you're coming that way. So,

2:30 if you're it's really about getting that

2:33 first conversation is just about

2:35 communication skills, networking skills,

2:37 and like in your business, getting the

2:39 right information to let that person

2:42 know that you're worth talking about,

2:44 you're intelligent, you're not with the

2:47 other 95% of people, just throwing

2:50 pitches out there.

2:52 >> And um so that's where it starts. So

2:54 then then where it goes from there is

2:55 just being able to listen and um know

2:59 your stuff on your end and get better

3:02 and better every day at having that

3:04 conversation that allows someone to know

3:07 you're helping them make a good quality

3:09 decision, not selling them something uh

3:12 even though we're sales people.

3:14 >> So it's all transferable. It really is.

3:16 And um there is some temperaments

3:19 required regarding

3:21 uh closing cycle. you know, a one-year

3:23 close versus a oneweek close.

3:25 >> Yeah.

3:25 >> Little bit different energy level than

3:27 the salespeople themselves, but the

3:29 conversation is either short or long,

3:31 but it's still a conversation.

3:33 >> Yeah. So,

3:34 >> did you find early in the process of

3:36 working with the 70 different companies

3:38 that it was really apparent that it was

3:41 transferable across industries or was

3:43 that something that as you got more

3:44 reference points, it became more and

3:46 more evident and then you're like, "Oh,

3:48 okay." you hit a tipping point where you

3:49 go this is truly

3:51 everything is fundamentally the same.

3:54 You know, I started at so it all started

3:56 out by my my first client was happen no

3:59 my second client my second client was in

4:02 telecom and I had been in the wireless

4:04 business for seven years and so I

4:06 thought ah this is it. Let's let's niche

4:09 it out you know this cuz I I know this

4:12 business and I could I could speak this

4:14 language. Um, but it just never came

4:16 that way. And because our clients have

4:18 all come from our web page for the most

4:21 part, a few referrals, but mostly just

4:24 people finding us all the way back in

4:25 2006. And actually, one guy, I was in

4:28 Washington, one person was here in

4:30 Sacramento who's still a client in 2008

4:33 called me. And I still remember my they

4:36 left a message on my voicemail. Okay.

4:38 So, we either got email or a phone call

4:41 and there wasn't like the phone was not

4:43 ringing every day. And so, I told my

4:47 wife, "But listen, somebody left the

4:49 voicemail. They want to they want to do

4:51 business with us. They want to talk to

4:52 us, you know, cuz here we were doing

4:55 shared virtual sales management, now

4:57 known as fractional, back in 2008. And

5:00 it's like, who the heck would who would

5:01 be looking for that?" And uh well,

5:04 people were. And so to answer your

5:06 question that what I it's more of um the

5:09 latter. I learned through experience

5:11 that

5:13 every my lens my lens started getting

5:16 sharp for what I we needed to hear. I

5:18 needed to hear my managers need to hear

5:20 to help someone improve their sales

5:21 process and the uh coaching of

5:24 salespeople, but it was never about the

5:25 product or the service. We just need to

5:27 know what the value proposition is and

5:30 is it worth what they're charging.

5:33 >> Yeah. It's funny because I'm I'm not on

5:36 the same journey, but I'm on one that

5:38 mirrors it, which is my background is in

5:40 like project management and like

5:42 operations focused project management.

5:44 And the more I learn about the sales

5:46 process and how to do be an effective

5:48 seller and how to do that,

5:49 >> like this is just project management

5:51 where sales should look at, you know,

5:53 project management is this is just

5:54 sales. It's just where are you starting

5:56 in the funnel and then where are you

5:59 transitioning it and really like if

6:00 you're a good project manager you should

6:02 be doing sales you should be doing

6:04 account management. Yes, maybe have an

6:06 account manager you ride alongside with

6:08 but the flow of what's happening is

6:10 always the same. what you're trying to

6:11 do is the same. And sales is just out

6:14 out front bringing the business in, but

6:16 project managing it in, handing it off,

6:19 and then hopefully the project

6:20 management team is, you know, keeping

6:21 that value prop alive, keeping it

6:23 seamless and everything. Um, but yeah, I

6:26 mean, you know, 9 months ago when I

6:28 first actually started real sales

6:29 training, you know, didn't really

6:31 understand it this way. And then, you

6:33 know, every day I'm having another

6:35 conversation. And I'm like, it just

6:36 reminds me more and more and more that

6:38 this is this is what I had learned

6:40 before. Um, it just happens to have a

6:43 different starting point, a different

6:44 part of the customer journey, but all

6:46 the same fundamentals like exist. Like

6:48 even the way that like setting up like a

6:50 discovery call

6:51 >> and walking through that what are here

6:54 are my objectives for the call, here are

6:55 your objectives for the call or

6:58 >> and then going through and did we hit

6:59 everything? Let me do a summary. Let me

7:00 send a summary back to you afterwards.

7:02 It's like that. I was hearing about that

7:04 for sales training. I was like, "Oh, I'

7:05 I've done that for years and years and

7:07 years." It was just in a project

7:10 management setting.

7:11 >> Sure.

7:12 >> Having a different, you know, thing,

7:13 having a different, you know, context, I

7:16 suppose.

7:17 >> Yeah.

7:18 >> It was very interesting to to have that

7:19 journey, but then to hear it's like

7:21 similar to yours where it's like, no,

7:22 all those industries are fundamentally

7:24 the same. Now, you change and there's

7:25 nuance and every, you know, everything

7:26 is slightly different, but you can start

7:29 from the same same starting point.

7:31 >> So, if we're um I I was kind of hearing

7:33 two messages. So I wanted to find out if

7:35 I'm if I was hearing correctly. So one I

7:38 heard that yes it's it's agnostic the

7:40 the project management of it but I

7:42 thought I also heard you saying

7:43 something like that

7:46 this is just like sales or was it just

7:48 like sales or it's just similar to my

7:50 experience of you know you could use the

7:52 same process in any industry.

7:55 >> I would say both but yeah project

7:57 management is just like sales. So, so I

8:00 want to ask you is like so people think

8:01 like they're customer service or project

8:04 management um you know or they're the

8:06 sales engineer right they're not the

8:08 frontline sales so

8:10 >> sure

8:11 >> you know like oh I don't want to be a

8:12 salesperson

8:14 >> you know there's that attitude like I'm

8:15 not I'm not that group you know I'm over

8:18 here I mean do you experience some of

8:20 that in your career with uh peers or

8:23 anything like that that there's like I I

8:25 just don't want to be considered a

8:26 salesperson you know can you speak to

8:28 that at an attitude there.

8:30 >> Yeah, I think uh for whatever reason or

8:33 for for transactional pushy sales people

8:36 tend to sour the uh the mood around

8:39 being called a salesperson,

8:41 >> right?

8:41 >> But I think from what I've noticed and

8:43 you can also have the

8:46 transactional order taking project

8:48 manager who is not listening is just

8:51 saying, "Okay, just tell me. Okay, now

8:52 we'll get it done." And you're like,

8:54 "Well, hold on. They can just go talk to

8:55 the engineer directly if that's all

8:56 you're going to do.

8:58 Um, but if you're doing what a good

9:01 salesperson is doing as a project

9:03 manager, you're listening, you're trying

9:04 to identify the problem, you're pulling

9:06 out more of the information about the

9:08 problem, you're trying to figure out how

9:09 do we address the problem? Yes.

9:11 >> How do we put this into an action plan?

9:13 And then are you comfortable with this

9:14 action plan? Are you understanding it?

9:16 Or here's a couple options on how we can

9:18 approach this. And really like you, if

9:20 you take that into the sales

9:21 conversation, it's the same thing.

9:23 >> Yes.

9:24 >> Let tell me more. Let me understand the

9:25 problem. here are some ways we can solve

9:27 it. Here are some options. I think, you

9:29 know, maybe one of the bigger

9:30 differences and isn't a sales

9:32 conversation. You might go, "Hey, this

9:34 problem sounds like something you need

9:36 to solve. Genuinely, we can't solve it.

9:39 You know, maybe you go work with these

9:40 folks or, you know, best of luck. I

9:42 don't but I don't want to, you know,

9:43 sell you something that you don't need."

9:45 Whereas in project management, it's like

9:47 we got to deliver. Like, we [laughter]

9:48 can't Hey, it was it was fun. I'm glad

9:51 you guys started working with us. after

9:52 talking to you for the last hour, um,

9:55 we're going to cancel the contract. It's

9:56 like, [laughter]

9:59 you know, I've been in those situations

10:00 where I've wanted to cancel the contract

10:02 because I wasn't enjoying the the

10:04 customer, but you know, that's a

10:05 different conversation. Um, but yeah,

10:07 just from like the perspective of the

10:08 two professions, it's the same process.

10:11 It's the same. How do I make sure I'm

10:13 truly listening? How do I pull something

10:14 out? How do I consult? How do I help get

10:17 to your end goal? And really it's then

10:20 just the context of have we haven't

10:22 started working with you and now we have

10:23 started working with you. And then

10:25 really if you're doing them both right

10:27 it's going to loop back in into you know

10:29 somebody you've worked with since 2008

10:30 is still working with you because you're

10:32 continuing to do the same thing. You

10:34 know, it's interesting like so part of

10:36 your work is helping, you know,

10:37 salespeople be prepared, right? And to

10:40 understand, you know, what someone's

10:43 doing just more intelligence signals and

10:45 whatever the right right timing and the

10:47 right information. And as I'm think

10:50 reflecting on that all there's all that

10:52 is good and it should prepare us as a

10:55 salesperson to have a better

10:57 conversation but it doesn't take away

11:00 what you just described which is listen

11:03 a conversation listening in

11:07 um with a blank slate. I I uh was on a

11:10 podcast um just earlier this week and

11:12 the uh host said, "Just want to show you

11:14 Rene, this is my list of questions." And

11:16 it was just a blank piece of paper.

11:18 >> Yeah.

11:18 >> And Darren u he's just very good at

11:23 listening. We were speaking about this.

11:26 There's this place where you can get to

11:28 and I maybe some people have it

11:29 naturally at the beginning, other people

11:31 evolve over time, but a listening space

11:35 where you're really okay not knowing

11:37 where the conversation's going to go.

11:39 >> You're just listening and it's telling

11:42 you where it should go. You know, in

11:46 >> uh we we talked about being prepared

11:48 with uh questions for your meeting, but

11:51 it doesn't mean you have a script. It

11:53 means that it's okay to say like, "Hey,

11:55 Austin, you give me a sec here. I want

11:56 to look at my list." Um, oh, I forgot. I

11:58 wanted to ask you this. It's okay. Like,

12:00 you don't have to look perfect like,

12:02 "Oh, and my next question is, you know,

12:04 you don't have to do that. You just be

12:05 natural and if you got a list, go look

12:07 at it and ask a question."

12:09 >> Yeah.

12:09 >> So, yeah.

12:10 >> Well, and hopefully that list is built

12:12 off of a previous conversation or some,

12:14 you know, hey, maybe you're having your

12:16 first conversation or your third

12:17 conversation. you're looking in your

12:18 these are things I'm curious about and

12:20 like

12:21 >> I'm trying to find out if we're a fit

12:23 before you and here's my curiosity and

12:24 maybe maybe your first three to five

12:27 questions were a certain direction and

12:29 question number one is answered and you

12:32 go wh those the next four questions are

12:33 useless I got to go this way and now I

12:36 don't really know where I'm going and I

12:37 think to your point you know saying hey

12:40 I honestly thought it was this direction

12:41 I'm learning a bunch like give me like

12:44 tell me more about this and simply just

12:45 saying that over and over can get you to

12:48 what the reality of it is. Um, and I'm

12:51 just being curious throughout the entire

12:52 process. I think, you know, not to get

12:56 too philosophical and off to the side,

12:58 but I think a lot of that has to do with

12:59 our education system because a lot of it

13:01 is

13:02 >> you're expected to know the answer.

13:04 You're expected to get to a certain

13:05 result. You're expected to always go to

13:07 here is the path ahead of you. Follow

13:09 the the the, you know, guiding light or

13:12 follow the lights on the side of the,

13:13 you know, road and just don't know. look

13:15 off to the side and then you pop out,

13:17 you get into the world. And if you're in

13:18 a sales position, it's every person's

13:21 experiencing something different with

13:22 their business. They have different

13:23 pains, different priorities, and you

13:25 need to be curious. And no one's going

13:27 to I mean, maybe one or two people are

13:29 going to follow the exact thing that

13:30 you're expecting, but

13:32 >> right,

13:32 >> they're going to be in a situation that

13:34 you're not going to fully understand

13:35 until you start having the conversation

13:37 and seeing if there's a fit,

13:39 >> right? No, it's a good point about

13:41 education. So, I was chuckling because,

13:43 you know, I'm I think I'm I'm a good

13:45 student. Uh I still learn, but back then

13:48 when it was about I'm also an achiever.

13:50 Oh, I just need to do this to get a

13:52 grade. Okay, I'll just I'll just learn

13:54 that narrow path to get the grade I

13:56 want. It wasn't really about exploratory

13:59 learning like I do today. It's just more

14:02 about getting a grade, you know, and and

14:04 I did.

14:04 >> Yeah. And I think that's I mean there's

14:06 your comparison to somebody who is uh

14:09 not following the sales process. Oh, I

14:11 have to do this to achieve my number.

14:12 I'm just going to do this to achieve my

14:14 number. Not thinking, let me be

14:16 exploratory. Let me see where this takes

14:18 me. Let me explore what this person's

14:21 actually experiencing versus let me just

14:23 try to cram them into my already

14:26 designed checkbook or checkbox that uh

14:28 yes,

14:28 >> I'm expecting them to go through.

14:30 >> Well, I'd like to speak more to that. Um

14:33 because I was thinking about this, you

14:35 know, when we we're talking about this,

14:37 like just get in there and converse, you

14:39 know, but well, where's the process? And

14:42 I could hear a business owner going

14:44 like, wait a minute, I just got a bunch

14:46 of wild conversations out there right

14:48 now. I need some more structure.

14:49 >> That's good point. [laughter]

14:51 >> So yeah, you do need some guard rails.

14:53 And I I think the most um if I was to

14:57 speak to like some of the best process

14:59 and the best um dashboards or metrics

15:03 you know people would have I mean

15:04 everyone can think of the easy ones the

15:06 leading the lagging indicators but gosh

15:09 what was the book I wrote I read

15:11 customer centric selling I believe it

15:13 was and they talked about quality

15:15 indicators and quality indicators were

15:18 about okay so it's one thing about

15:20 moving them onto a stage but why did

15:22 they move to that stage page, you know,

15:24 or what held them back. It's let me

15:27 think of a I think of a good one here.

15:29 Um,

15:31 okay. Like, um, how many people were

15:34 invited to how many people spoke at the

15:36 meeting you had? You know, was it just

15:38 one decision maker? Did you just throw,

15:40 you know, number two or three level guy

15:42 in there for you to meet and then

15:44 another meeting, oh, one, two, and three

15:46 were in the meeting? there's a quality

15:48 indicator that like of they're they're

15:51 investing more time into this

15:53 conversation which tells us that there's

15:56 stronger potential interest here. People

15:59 wouldn't show up to that meeting if

16:00 there wasn't.

16:01 >> Uh and so there's, you know, a quality

16:03 of meeting. Uh the type of questions

16:05 someone asks you, not just did they just

16:08 listen all day long and take notes.

16:09 Nope. What questions did they ask? You

16:11 could have a quality level of that

16:13 meeting. So, it's kind of getting a

16:15 little bit deeper, but I mean it really

16:17 does if I think if uh a seasoned

16:21 salesperson could be able to share with

16:23 you, they don't think of it this way.

16:25 This was my experience also. Um pulling

16:28 these these qualities or the quantity,

16:30 whatever the right indicators are. Good

16:33 sales people just do a little bit what

16:34 we were talking about. It's just

16:36 natural. They just flow with it and they

16:38 don't always know how to describe what

16:40 they're doing. they just instinctively

16:41 know what to do and how to uh which

16:44 direction to go in. So

16:46 part of what we do at times is we'll sit

16:48 down and we're sitting down with people

16:50 and saying okay so explain to me well it

16:52 just was a good meeting. Yeah. All the

16:53 three decision makers was there. So it's

16:55 like so I have to ask the question. So

16:57 how do you what do you think about a

16:59 meeting has three of them there instead

17:01 of one of them there? What goes on in

17:02 your mind? So you know I have to kind of

17:04 like peel the onion back so I can um get

17:08 to the understanding to break it down.

17:10 So now sales rep number two who doesn't

17:13 have those same instincts but he has

17:15 good uh uh discipline needs to learn

17:19 some of those instincts but it doesn't

17:20 come natural. So we have to paint a

17:22 picture of what that looks like until

17:25 they start feeling it. And these are the

17:28 little nuances that um you can

17:32 have trained in your organization if you

17:34 have a skilled

17:36 not a coach not a trainer a skilled

17:39 facilitator

17:41 >> leader who knows how to pull out those

17:44 nuances and then have them shared in a

17:47 team and I hope that's our strength. I

17:50 believe it is. Yeah.

17:51 >> Um, so our managers are always

17:53 facilitating facilitating learning

17:55 rather than preach learning.

17:58 >> I mean, is it fair to say like

18:00 establishing a common language so that

18:02 you can make sure that everyone's on the

18:03 same page and, you know, the the less

18:06 skilled people can go listen to, you

18:08 know, the more skilled people and hear

18:10 the commonalities and go, "Oh, okay.

18:12 This is what I need to start, you know,

18:13 doing more often." I mean, as you were

18:15 saying it, my brain immediately went to

18:17 medic, you know, as a as one of the

18:19 many. I I don't I'm not pro promoting

18:22 medic. I think B is great. I think

18:24 they're all there for a very good

18:25 reason, which is creating the common

18:27 language. And then to your point about

18:29 the process, it being not a I need to do

18:33 this and this and this and this order.

18:35 It's here are the things that I should

18:37 be generally understanding as I'm

18:38 closing a a deal. And if I can

18:41 understand all of these things or if I'm

18:42 missing part, it can be a guiding or it

18:45 can be an idea of okay, I I think I

18:48 understand what's happening but I'm

18:49 missing um you know what is who is the

18:52 economic buyer? Like I've talked there's

18:54 three people in this room. Is anyone

18:56 going to write this check? Like or are I

18:58 talking to the person with the check or

18:59 am I just talking to some directors that

19:01 are having some fun exploring an idea

19:04 >> and they're never actually gonna take it

19:05 to anybody? I have no champion or

19:07 whatever. And you don't have to go like

19:09 well metrics econom like it's not a a

19:13 follow the path. It's a guiding

19:14 principle of like here are the things I

19:16 should know when I'm trying to figure

19:18 out exactly how this deal or how do we

19:20 help them? How does this deal move

19:22 forward? All that kind of stuff which a

19:24 lot of very talented you know sales

19:26 people just know. They understand that.

19:28 They don't have to be told these

19:30 letters. But then for other folks or

19:32 people who are learning those letters

19:34 start providing that common language,

19:36 that structure to be able to start

19:38 having the scaffolding to do it easily

19:40 on their own.

19:42 I I'm I'm just going to reinforce what I

19:44 said and what you said on there because

19:47 >> that is all about to me to to be able to

19:50 break it down and take the instinctive

19:52 knowledge of these top salespeople who

19:55 don't normally are big sharers because

19:58 they're just in their booking business,

20:01 you know,

20:02 >> and they just want to win. They want to

20:03 be the top. got time to coach and train

20:05 other people, you know, [laughter]

20:07 and so, um,

20:09 >> but it's it is it's such a great

20:11 ingredient because the other salespeople

20:13 in that room will listen to them, but

20:17 like I said, it takes that um person in

20:19 between that could help pull that

20:21 information out to be shared down

20:24 without making that top salesperson feel

20:26 like they're wasting their time training

20:28 others. So, you do it in the in the

20:31 midst of a sales meeting where they're

20:34 already being there anyway. And instead

20:35 of boring everyone with, you know,

20:38 talking about every deal and where it's

20:40 at when that's the salesperson's job. We

20:43 don't, as a sales manager, I don't need

20:44 to talk about every deal and tell them

20:46 what they should do next. I hired them

20:48 to think about that.

20:49 >> So, let's go ahead and, you know, talk

20:52 about how we can get better or any

20:54 issues someone has about moving forward.

20:57 Um then yeah, those are great

20:59 conversations to have, but I don't need

21:01 to drill down in every deal. Otherwise,

21:03 just why don't I put my sales hat and go

21:04 do that job, you know?

21:06 >> Yeah. Exactly. Well, and you're never

21:08 going to be um effective if you're in

21:11 the minutia constantly. Like when I've

21:14 been in, you know, leadership roles and,

21:16 you know, running a team, you know, of

21:18 20 different people, it's if I'm

21:20 involved in all 20 people's business, I

21:22 have no time to actually be looking out

21:25 for them, you know, carving out space

21:26 for them when something is on fire. I

21:29 don't I can't just stop everything I'm

21:31 doing and focus on them if I'm in in

21:32 everyone's hands. But if I keep myself

21:35 in a position where I'm constantly

21:38 available and doing high impact but not

21:40 high urgency work, low urgency work, I

21:43 can then step in and somebody goes,

21:44 "Something's going terribly wrong." I

21:46 can drop my low urgency work, go focus

21:48 on them, spend a bunch of time with

21:50 them.

21:50 >> If they say, "Hey, I need these

21:52 resources to make available." I can go

21:54 fight for those resources in the

21:55 organization to bring them to them.

21:57 >> And if and if I'm available to do that,

22:00 then I can do those things. If I'm in

22:01 the weeds, if I'm in that trying to

22:04 figure out how do I can be involved in

22:05 every single deal, then, you know, every

22:08 single project, I'm not going to be able

22:10 to to do those things because I'm just

22:12 not going to be available and have the

22:13 bandwidth to do them. And

22:15 >> it's just the reality of

22:17 >> how much time there is in a day. You

22:19 can't you can't solve that.

22:21 >> If I was looking for a manager, I'd want

22:23 to work for you because [laughter] you

22:25 you would you would recognize what you

22:27 would listen to see what I needed uh to

22:29 help me bet better. So that that's

22:31 pretty cool. I love

22:32 >> ah servant leadership. I didn't come up

22:34 with the idea. I just listened to some

22:35 people with better ideas. [laughter]

22:37 >> Yeah. You listen and it in and it

22:38 resonated with you which is a whole

22:40 another thing. It's like learning,

22:42 right? We we learn about what we kind of

22:44 instinctively already believe in. I I

22:47 think a lot of our learning is just

22:49 finding agreement that keeps our

22:51 momentum going. Once in a while we get

22:52 one that hits us between the eyeballs

22:54 and says like, "Oh man, I've been a

22:56 jerk. I need to fix this." you know, but

22:59 but I think a lot of it is building on

23:01 our our agreement and stuff. Anyways,

23:03 philosophy.

23:04 >> Yeah. Yeah. All right. We've got a

23:06 couple tangents in, but we're having fun

23:07 with it, so I'm cool. Um, you know, I

23:10 think one of the interesting things you

23:11 mentioned, too, is like, you know, the

23:12 uh the top sales performers, um, you

23:15 know, the whiff them for them should be

23:17 that, you know, if you can get the rest

23:19 of your team up to a certain level, they

23:21 can bring back better market data for

23:24 you to improve as well. It's like it's

23:26 definitely like one of those things

23:26 where a rising tide raises all boats

23:29 because if you have, you know, 10 people

23:32 on the team, two are crushing it, eight

23:34 are struggling. That's eight people who

23:36 could be going out and learning and

23:38 finding nuances and telling you about a

23:40 competitor or showing you like telling

23:42 you like, "Hey, we've noticed this

23:43 painoint is actually really resonating

23:45 with these types of people." And like

23:47 sure, you can believe that you would

23:49 have done that, but if you had 10 people

23:51 finding out all the information instead

23:52 of two people, um that's really going

23:55 to, you know, be a force multiplier and

23:57 you're still ahead of them. You're still

23:58 going to beat them, you're still going

23:59 to win, you know,

24:01 >> don't worry about that. But maybe a

24:02 little investment and, you know,

24:04 bringing those people up, adopting that

24:06 shared language, being able to

24:08 participate in that, you know, will

24:10 actually come around and serve you in

24:12 the long run. being able to to get that

24:14 market information. You don't have even

24:16 care if they succeed, but at least

24:17 you're getting

24:18 >> Yeah.

24:18 >> market feedback that you wouldn't have

24:20 gotten otherwise.

24:21 >> So, I like what you said, what's in it

24:23 for them, you know? So, that's one thing

24:25 is just some information that comes back

24:27 for them is what you're saying with the

24:28 market insight.

24:29 >> Yeah.

24:30 >> And it's and from another perspective is

24:32 I'm a big proponent of two types of

24:35 goals, individual and team. you know,

24:38 some and there's arguments out there

24:40 like team goals, no, they suck, you

24:42 know, just individuals because we need

24:43 sales people to just be accountable for

24:45 their own stuff. They do. But I find

24:47 that there's more people there's more

24:49 sales people or people in general that

24:51 will work harder for a team than they

24:53 will for themselves. The top guys,

24:56 they're already working for themselves.

24:58 Yeah.

24:58 >> So, that's a done deal. They don't even

24:59 need a goal. They're just going to go.

25:02 But if uh their contribution can help

25:04 them achieve a they can achieve the team

25:07 goal by two ways. One is by winning it

25:10 for the team.

25:11 >> Yeah.

25:11 >> Or the ways we've been discussing you

25:13 know how do you rise others? So there's

25:16 a little extra bonus there too. I tell

25:19 you there was one um one client I went

25:22 into. They had one guy's name when I

25:25 joined uh entered the company was

25:27 invited in to be the manager.

25:30 There was the salesperson of the um of

25:33 the month award, you know, on the wall

25:35 and it was the same guy. All the months

25:38 or at least 11 of the 12 months.

25:40 >> Yeah.

25:41 >> And [clears throat] so he was the top

25:42 dog. Everyone knew it. That's it. He was

25:45 a nice guy. He was a humble guy. He

25:46 wasn't the loud, you know, obnoxious. He

25:49 just knew how to go get the business and

25:51 he went and did it in his own quiet

25:52 little way. He was not an anti-team

25:55 player, but he wasn't really interested

25:58 in the team because there wasn't enough

26:00 consistency of performance in the other

26:02 players for him to be excited about.

26:05 >> So, he was a nice person who stayed in

26:07 his lane and did a lot of money. Well,

26:09 one of the things I did was we took down

26:12 the team, the salesperson of the um the

26:15 month award off. uh in this c in this

26:18 particular culture there was also a big

26:20 divide between salespeople that earned

26:22 more money and the rest of the company

26:24 but the rest of the company really

26:26 supported the salespeople.

26:28 >> So I said why wouldn't the salespeople

26:30 just be on the employee of the month

26:32 award? Why wouldn't they just be a great

26:34 >> general team player within the whole

26:36 organization instead of being this

26:38 specialist? cuz there wasn't a client

26:40 services person of the month or you know

26:43 a receptionist of the month or anything

26:45 else just sales and you know what the

26:50 top guy had no problem with that because

26:51 it was actually my probably a little

26:53 embarrassing [laughter]

26:55 >> you know just like great I'm all the

26:58 time all right I got it again you know

27:00 there was no real recognition there

27:02 anyway so what what happened there what

27:05 I wanted to get to was that the team

27:08 started rising, he stayed and watched.

27:11 He was a team guy. [clears throat] There

27:13 just wasn't a team for him to play with

27:16 >> until there was actually other players

27:18 that were performing and producing. And

27:21 to your point, now they had something to

27:24 contribute that he learned from. I

27:27 [clears throat] remember this one thing

27:28 I I I tried to get into um I was

27:30 challenging the whole team with going

27:32 after bigger accounts. this was in

27:33 commercial insurance and they kind of

27:35 had a little he had a little sweet spot

27:37 and he was good at it and

27:39 [clears throat] convincing that level of

27:40 buyer and when I said let's go after

27:42 bigger accounts he said no I don't want

27:43 to do that it's a waste of time why was

27:45 it a waste of time because he couldn't

27:46 convince the one buyer on that one or

27:49 two meetings he could now he had to do

27:52 the committee and and work his way up

27:54 well when some of the other

27:57 you know uh less decorated salespeople

28:00 started bringing in some larger deals to

28:02 him. He got interested.

28:04 >> Yeah.

28:05 >> So, and yes, and he lost and wasted time

28:08 with a deal or two, not winning, but

28:11 then he started landing some. So, it was

28:14 he had made a self-prophecy on himself

28:16 that I don't like big deals.

28:19 >> And he would have stayed there unless he

28:22 got lucky one day if the team that was,

28:25 you know, not as capable as him started

28:28 showing their capability and then it

28:31 elevated him. So, it was a great it's

28:33 really a great story when you think

28:34 about it because it can happen anywhere.

28:36 Um,

28:37 >> yeah,

28:38 >> but um it takes um I'm tooting my own

28:41 horn here.

28:44 >> It takes a it takes a leader that can

28:47 see all of that. Just like a salesperson

28:49 can see the dynamic of the sales

28:51 conversation. A leader has to see the

28:54 dynamic of the sales team to be able to

28:56 say, "Okay, [clears throat]

28:58 I don't want to overchallenge this guy

29:00 because he's producing. So, how do I get

29:03 him to turn his head, you know, and just

29:05 just you're always looking at all

29:06 players. How do I have all players rise

29:09 up?" And it doesn't happen overnight.

29:12 That was a nine-year gig. He probably

29:14 sold his first big account four years

29:16 into my time with them. So, it's not all

29:20 instant. uh the owners, managers, they

29:23 have to have a commitment to getting

29:25 better and it's everything isn't

29:28 overnight.

29:29 >> Yeah. You know, I think uh and even when

29:31 you were saying just like having a team

29:33 goal, [clears throat] like my immediate

29:35 thought was all right, I could be like

29:37 at my goal or maybe a little under it

29:40 and be like, "Yeah, whatever. I'm not

29:41 going to work very hard the next couple

29:43 weeks because it's not going to really

29:44 change anything even if I close this

29:46 deal." But if you look over your

29:47 shoulder and you go, "Well, a team's

29:48 going to hit the goal if I hit this

29:50 thing." So, all right. Or like I I hit

29:52 my quota.

29:53 >> Yeah.

29:53 >> Not going to really make that much more

29:54 money. I'm going to chill, hit the golf

29:56 course. And then if you look over and

29:58 you go, "Oh, but my team could hit the

30:00 goal if I go work hard for the next two

30:02 weeks."

30:03 >> So therefore, I'm going to go work hard

30:04 for the next two weeks. I mean, that was

30:06 an immediate one on mine. The yours,

30:08 your actual real life example though is

30:11 much more impactful than just that

30:13 little [laughter] idea that it might

30:15 work.

30:17 >> Yeah. But all right, so we've gotten to

30:19 the half hour mark. I want to respect

30:21 your schedule, but before I let you go,

30:24 I gotta ask the question I ask

30:25 everybody, which is if somebody's

30:26 listening in

30:27 >> and they've got one takeaway that like

30:29 you have to go apply this to your your

30:31 management, your leadership, your

30:32 company, uh what would be that one big

30:35 takeaway that somebody's got to make

30:37 sure that they they apply?

30:42 >> Improve your listening. That's it. If

30:44 you're leadership or sales,

30:47 make a commitment to listen. Listen

30:49 differently.

30:50 >> Listen hear your own mind talking. So

30:54 when you start hearing your own mind

30:55 talking,

30:57 um then it's time to say shut up.

31:00 >> And you actually can have that little

31:03 inner voice quiet down. And and you can

31:07 practice it anywhere,

31:09 but the better you get at shutting that

31:10 voice down and just having your ears

31:13 absorb what's coming at you, um you will

31:17 be improving your listening.

31:19 >> Fantastic. Rene, thank you so much for

31:21 taking the time today.

31:22 >> You got it, man. Thanks for having me,

31:24 Austin. My pleasure.