Dan Oakes on AI Lead Generation and Signal-Based Prospecting

Transcript

0:02 Dan, as I was saying, I was reading

0:03 through uh uh the the bullet points that

0:06 you had. I couldn't agree with more with

0:08 like kind of your approach. Um but I

0:10 think a great starting point is, you

0:12 know, you're talking about mistakes that

0:13 folks make when they're using AI for

0:15 lead generation. Do you mind

0:16 highlighting some of those just to

0:18 begin?

0:20 >> Yeah, there's a few that most mistakes a

0:23 few categories that most mistakes I see

0:25 fall into. And the first one is they

0:28 they buy these tools or give tools to

0:31 their folks. They don't really have an

0:32 underlying strategy.

0:34 >> I think we all remember when the AI SDRs

0:37 became the the big craze in Silicon

0:41 Valley and beyond. And I think very few

0:44 folks had a lot of success with those

0:46 because

0:48 >> they didn't really have a underlying

0:49 strategy behind it. They just took the

0:51 tool, spent a little bit of time, just a

0:54 very little bit of time and energy and

0:55 let it do its own thing. And that that

0:59 was successful because they didn't

1:01 invest the time upfront to clearly

1:03 define what are the outcomes that they

1:05 want to do, what do they need the AI to

1:07 do, and what's really just a

1:09 deterministic workflow that they don't

1:11 necessarily need AI that the tool

1:14 uh can can do very well. So that that's

1:16 one category, AI with not not a lot of

1:19 strategy. Another category is

1:23 burning too much money and token spend

1:27 on things that you don't really need to.

1:29 Uh, one of my clients that I worked with

1:31 earlier this year, one of their SDRs was

1:34 spending

1:36 I can't remember the exact dollar like

1:38 $50 to $100 per week on this one AI

1:41 workflow to find what resulted in like a

1:45 couple qualified leads per month. And

1:49 the the reasoning behind that is that

1:52 they were over complicating it and using

1:55 LLMs for a lot of things that are really

1:58 just deterministic workflow. Software is

2:01 great at automating things and AI is

2:05 good for making a little bit of

2:06 decision-m and you don't need you just

2:08 want to make sure that you use the the

2:11 right tool for the the right workflow.

2:15 Mhm.

2:15 >> Um,

2:17 and the the third main problem I see is

2:21 there's no overall

2:24 structure or strategy behind on a

2:27 company level around who's doing what.

2:30 And so what I mean by that is I see a

2:33 lot of companies they they are doing one

2:36 thing great which is allowing the the

2:39 people on the front line the individual

2:41 contributor SDR and AEES to have claude

2:45 or whatever your AI tool is but there

2:50 there's just no structure or guard rail

2:52 or I like to use what the c consultants

2:57 call a mei framework meaning mutually

3:00 exclusive, completely exhaustive

3:02 framework around just somebody mapping

3:04 out that here are all of the possible

3:09 if if you're using it for lead genen,

3:12 here are all the possible types of leads

3:15 in our TAM and here's clear ownership

3:18 around which rep is doing which workflow

3:21 or covering which type of leads. And

3:23 then so if you don't have one

3:24 centralized person whether that's a

3:26 sales leader or somebody on the rev ops

3:28 team governing that then you're then

3:30 what I've seen is

3:33 uh the reps spending too much time

3:36 building this the duplicative tools

3:39 which isn't a great great use of uh time

3:41 and resources and also targeting this

3:44 the same folks with the same plays and

3:47 so those are the top mistakes that that

3:49 I see. So for maybe like the less

3:52 technically minded, when you say like,

3:54 hey, somebody's using an LLM for

3:56 deterministic, you know, work, you know,

3:59 how would you break that down in like

4:00 super layman terms so that like somebody

4:03 hearing that like idea for the first

4:04 time could understand that pretty

4:06 quickly?

4:08 >> Yeah, I'll break it down. But the

4:09 analogy that I would make is using a

4:12 flamethrower to

4:14 >> just need a a fly swatter.

4:16 >> Yeah. And so a specific example of that

4:21 would be using a tool like Claude or

4:25 Chat GPT to

4:29 send uh to like to send an email for

4:33 example when when really you already

4:35 have a sales engagement platform that

4:37 just follows very clear if then

4:39 statements that it just runs it runs one

4:43 line of code instead of prompt ing an

4:46 LLM to consume a bunch of tokens to do a

4:49 very simple task that's automated that

4:53 for for decades SAS software has been

4:55 doing the these automated tasks versus

4:58 running an entire new prompt through an

5:01 LLM that that consumes more tokens.

5:03 >> Yeah. And and for somebody who's looking

5:06 at this and thinking like, okay,

5:09 that's a that's a straightforward one.

5:11 Like we've had these tools where they've

5:12 been able to just automatically insert

5:14 somebody's name into like the body of an

5:16 email saying hi person's name

5:18 automatically entered. You don't need

5:20 Claude to rewrite an entire email just

5:22 to put in that name. Um what are some of

5:24 the other basic examples that people can

5:26 start kind of wrapping their head around

5:28 where you know deterministic is totally

5:30 plausible. It works. It might even be

5:32 more effective and less like prone to

5:34 error because it's not going to

5:35 introduce an LLM's variability.

5:38 >> Yeah. So [clears throat]

5:41 I actually think that sales engagement

5:43 platforms are great.

5:45 >> Yeah.

5:46 >> And teams should be using them. And

5:50 you know outreach sales loft they took

5:53 off uh you know however many years ago

5:55 in the in the 2010s and that was all

5:58 deterministic

5:59 software. And I I still think that

6:04 th those many of those same things still

6:07 should be used today that getting

6:10 getting meetings for example it like

6:12 nothing's really changed with how people

6:14 buy like and are excited to get uh a

6:17 meeting

6:18 >> and you you can reach people the same

6:20 way. You it's really just sending good

6:25 information, good messaging to the right

6:27 people at the right channels. So, I

6:30 think teams can still use these sales

6:32 engagement platforms for the final

6:35 delivery. Um, it's just AI has its place

6:38 upstream of that to figure out and

6:41 prioritize who to reach out to

6:44 >> and when. and the

6:49 um yeah, so the the deterministic so you

6:52 don't you don't need to use an AI to

6:55 both figure out who to reach out to and

6:59 craft a new sequence every single time

7:01 and craft messaging in that sequence and

7:04 figure out which tool to use to

7:07 uh to send the email to uh do all these

7:11 other things. Um, it's like use the AI

7:14 for the the stuff that requires a little

7:16 bit of judgment and then spend the time

7:18 and energy up front to map out what the

7:21 deterministic workflow is like and then

7:23 and then just map it the data flow

7:26 downstream like that.

7:27 >> Yeah. Yeah. So like it seems like the

7:30 rule of thumb is if like any of these

7:32 sales engagement platforms, Apollo,

7:34 Outreach, you know, Sales Loft, if they

7:36 were doing it in the 2010s, it don't

7:39 don't apply LLM to it. they already have

7:41 it figured out. There's no no ad for

7:43 that. Um, and then I think, you know, I

7:46 think you're just alluding to kind of

7:47 like how to fix the problem of like the

7:49 mistakes, which is to start with

7:51 mapping. Um, and then kind of figuring

7:54 out what you're trying to do before just

7:55 throwing AI on top of that. Um, so if we

7:58 have those mistakes or if you kind of

8:00 have a sales leader sitting here and

8:01 going, "Oh, I kind of I just heard what

8:04 we're doing and I just felt this pain."

8:06 uh what would you recommend as like a

8:07 first step um to start getting out of

8:10 that pain and into an effective use of

8:12 it?

8:14 Yeah, the I think the first step is just

8:17 mapping out

8:19 what I like to start from first

8:21 principles with everyone I work with and

8:24 map out what excellent looks like, what

8:26 what good looks like and what you want

8:29 your reps to do and

8:32 >> um like who should they be reaching out

8:34 to when should they be reaching out to

8:37 them and and how. And so what's probably

8:43 going on whether sales leaders are

8:46 working with teams that have territories

8:49 but

8:51 certain rules of engagements or named

8:53 account lists and the reps are using AI

8:57 to to help out with prospecting.

9:00 They're they're probably the reps are

9:02 probably using AI to

9:06 um

9:08 just like create a bad a lot of bad

9:11 messages. They're probably using AI to

9:13 to do the the endto-end workflow. So I I

9:16 would break it down into

9:18 um what are reasons why people buy our

9:22 product? What is a really good signal?

9:25 What is a good positive trigger that we

9:28 can find that that's a a good reason for

9:31 us to reach out to uh this company and

9:35 what is good messaging that we already

9:37 know works that when we see this trigger

9:40 and this message um if we just deliver

9:43 that message whether it's email call

9:46 LinkedIn we know that generates meeting

9:48 I I would start with that and just map

9:50 out and be creative because AI has a lot

9:54 of really good capabilities to find

9:55 information, find these otherwise really

9:58 challenging to find triggers that it

10:00 would take many hours of research

10:02 before. So, map out all of these

10:04 different triggers that you you want you

10:06 want your team to be reaching out to uh

10:11 people with and have some general

10:15 messaging for each one of these

10:16 triggers. And then I I I would assign

10:20 clear ownership to um I like to call

10:23 each one of these trigger based outreach

10:25 a go to market play. So have clear

10:27 ownership around who owns what specific

10:29 plays so that you know it's getting done

10:32 on a weekly basis or depending on the

10:34 the trigger a monthly basis. But it's

10:36 it's a very very clear onetoone

10:38 ownership and and just to make things

10:40 equitable. You can rotate those between

10:43 either your SCR team every every week or

10:45 every month just to so there's no bias

10:47 in hey this this play is getting more

10:50 leads for than than the other. But um

10:52 yeah the first part is like map out all

10:54 of these uh different different triggers

10:56 and plays. figure out what are the

10:58 databases that

11:00 um that you're going to get this

11:01 information that whether it's a

11:04 newsletter, whether it's scanning

11:05 LinkedIn, whether it's uh hiring

11:07 updates, whether it's uh I I I've made

11:11 built some plays based off of new SEC

11:13 filings. just figure out what the

11:14 database source is, then build the AI

11:17 agentic capabilities to scan those

11:21 sources on a regular cadence and then

11:24 map out the the downstream funnel from

11:27 there. So, it's typically you're going

11:28 to find the for each single play, do the

11:31 same. It's the same pipeline, do the

11:32 same thing. It's use the AI to find the

11:35 the trigger or signal. Then you you have

11:38 to figure out um you're probably going

11:41 to put that information in some kind of

11:43 database to say okay here's the company

11:44 exhibiting the signal. Then the rest is

11:47 kind of a deterministic workflow of if

11:50 it's this company this type of company

11:52 we know that we need to find these types

11:53 of contacts. So then they have the

11:55 enrichment automation and then once you

11:57 have that enrichment automation, put it

11:58 into your sales engagement platform that

12:01 already has either the the pre-built

12:03 messaging in the emails or if you want

12:05 to do um you know manual outreach on top

12:09 of that or it's creating the tasks to

12:11 call these people. Um but that's how I

12:15 do it.

12:15 >> Yeah.

12:16 >> Build out build out a map of everything

12:17 and then build this the pieces for every

12:19 single uh play. So when you're building

12:22 out that map of everything, do you have

12:24 any like guidelines or rules of thumb on

12:26 like the the right level of this is the

12:29 enough detail and then okay now you're

12:31 overdocumenting like it's fine but you

12:33 don't have to waste that much time doing

12:34 it. Like is there a sweet spot that you

12:36 can like recommend on how to people how

12:38 people should like hit that?

12:41 >> Start with one and make sure that you

12:44 get it right. And I I would also start

12:48 with one of your reps who's more tech

12:51 forward, who's already tinkered with

12:53 things on their own or has a has a is

12:56 really bought in

12:58 >> um and just get that one play

13:01 running really smoothly. And I I my my

13:06 guess is if you walk into uh a room with

13:09 all of your reps and you say, "Matt,

13:11 hey, let's what are the best triggers

13:13 that you guys are using that you think

13:15 will work?" You may come up with 20

13:17 ideas, which is great. I I would

13:18 document all of those, but then start

13:21 with the one that's going to be some

13:23 combination of it's a trigger that's

13:25 going to be happening frequently among

13:29 your TAM and

13:32 um it it's one that you've kind of used

13:35 in the past and have a high like you

13:38 have a high degree of confidence that

13:40 messaging is going to resonate

13:41 incrementally more than generic

13:43 messaging.

13:44 >> Yeah. Um and and then the the third

13:47 metric I would consider is easiness to

13:50 build. So ideally it's something that

13:53 you don't have to look at 20 different

13:55 sources in order to to find a signal.

13:58 Start with something that's relatively

14:01 easy to build in terms of it's scanning

14:03 some newsletters. It's looking at one or

14:04 two specific sites. Um so get get that

14:08 done right. build out the the downstream

14:12 plumbing of

14:14 trigger. Find a company, find the people

14:17 to enrich, and move that into a your

14:23 sales engagement platform that you

14:25 already use.

14:26 >> Get the rep to do it for at least a week

14:29 or two. And so you're getting touch

14:31 points and you're generating meetings

14:32 from that. The reality is you're going

14:34 to be able to copy and paste the

14:36 downstream plumbing for most of these

14:39 plays that you're running.

14:40 >> Yeah.

14:41 >> And and then from there, once you have

14:43 one working well, then maybe I would go

14:47 to

14:48 the other reps on your team and say,

14:50 "Hey, here here are all these other

14:52 plays. What have you have you already

14:55 been doing a lot of this stuff on your

14:56 own manually? Would you like to own

14:58 one?" I would almost ask like what what

15:00 do you want to own? and um start diving

15:04 it up that way and and then just

15:06 continue to to build out the the rest of

15:08 these.

15:09 >> Yeah, I like that.

15:10 >> So, oh, sorry, keep going.

15:11 >> Oh, I I was say in terms of amount, I

15:13 don't have a perfect amount of a sweet

15:15 spot of what is the uh the right amount

15:18 to

15:20 to implement on a on a team. I would say

15:22 as many as you can handle. Um, what I

15:25 think you'll probably find is your team

15:27 will quickly come to a conclusion of

15:30 four to five that you know there's

15:31 there's enough happening on a weekly

15:33 basis that these triggers are giving you

15:36 a bunch of leads on a weekly basis. And

15:37 then there's going to be a long tale of,

15:40 you know, this event only happens once a

15:42 month to one person, but when it does,

15:44 we know we want to reach out to them and

15:46 and you'll probably have a dozen or so

15:48 plays like that. But it's good to have

15:49 that going on in the background. But I

15:51 want to be the first one that I build to

15:53 ensure that the whole process is working

15:55 well.

15:56 >> Yeah. I like I was going to say that I

15:57 really like the change management like

15:59 approach that you laid out too. It's

16:00 like find the quick, easy, impactful

16:02 win. Just focus there. Start getting the

16:05 wins. And then if you go into your other

16:06 reps and you're going, well, check out

16:08 all this success over here. when they go

16:11 to look at whether or not they're going

16:12 to want to do it, they're like, "Well, I

16:13 do want all that success, so I guess I

16:15 will kind of do a little extra work that

16:17 I wouldn't ne necessarily do or I'm

16:19 going to buy in when I might have been

16:21 skeptical before." Um, and then, you

16:24 know, I love this thing where you're

16:25 like, "Hey, just take the easy one." And

16:27 then outside of the trigger, once you

16:29 get this thing moving smoothly, and it

16:31 seems like you you get the opportunity

16:32 to refine that on that first go, then

16:36 you can just copy paste it down. Now

16:38 when you copy paste that down would you

16:39 say that there is room for saying okay

16:41 but for this sequence or that this you

16:44 know flow that we have we might make a a

16:47 couple minor adjustments just based on

16:48 things we've noticed even though our

16:50 archetypal approach is always the same

16:52 across or is it like don't mess with

16:54 that because you're going to lose good

16:55 data by switching the different like

16:58 flows that you have set up.

17:00 I think you can tailor it to each

17:02 individual play. And one specific

17:05 example is you. So you might have some

17:09 plays where whenever this happens at a

17:12 company, whenever you see this trigger

17:14 trigger, it it's worth reaching out to,

17:17 you know, five to 10 possible champions

17:20 in a company. And so you want to have

17:22 your enrichment workflow say, "Hey, find

17:25 everybody within this persona or these

17:27 job titles." and then enter them into

17:30 this this downstream s sales engagement

17:33 platform sequence that we've already

17:34 built. But then you might have another

17:37 trigger that it's very specific to an

17:40 individual and so reaching out to 10

17:44 people in the company it's not as

17:45 relevant like you really only want to

17:46 reach out to that one person. So example

17:48 would be like

17:51 >> person change. I think a trigger a lot

17:53 of folks are already using is uh new job

17:56 trigger. And so when you have that you

17:59 you identify somebody, you know, a new

18:01 leader and you want to reach out to

18:02 them. You don't necessarily want to

18:03 reach out to everybody else in in the

18:05 org. So the the that plumbing would be

18:09 oneoff for that specific play, but it

18:12 should be just an easy enough step at

18:15 that piece of of the plumbing. And so

18:18 why I like breaking up the the different

18:21 workflows of the there's the enrichment

18:23 find a company automation, the

18:25 enrichment automation and then the

18:27 pushing it to the sales engagement

18:29 platform automation.

18:31 >> If your enrichment automation changes

18:33 from workflow to workflow, that's just

18:34 one piece that you have to change. You

18:36 don't need to touch these other two

18:37 pieces that are still copy and paste.

18:39 >> Yeah. Nice. Um, so like I love this this

18:43 idea of the trigger, but you know, when

18:45 I'm hearing this, I could see how

18:47 somebody might interpret this is like,

18:48 well, how's that different than a signal

18:49 or how's this different than an

18:51 indicator? How's this different than the

18:52 other ways that people are saying to

18:54 gather information from the market? Uh

18:56 do you have a distinct uh definition

18:58 between like what you mean by trigger

19:00 and then all the other ways that people

19:02 are kind of enriching data for

19:04 prioritization and targeting or would

19:07 you kind of say trigger is the

19:08 overarching version of that?

19:11 >> I'd say it triggers the overarching

19:14 version of that.

19:15 >> Yeah.

19:15 >> Um I I would say

19:22 >> yeah I guess I don't have a great answer

19:24 to that. when when you when you're

19:25 saying between the difference between

19:26 signal and trigger, what were you

19:28 thinking about in your mind? people have

19:30 like, you know, they'll talk about um,

19:32 you know, signals or indicators that

19:34 were like triggers and they'll say

19:35 things like, you know, if somebody like

19:37 a a job posting is like X and then maybe

19:42 like somebody Googled at the

19:44 organization, Y, but then like the

19:47 Google thing is like, well, technically

19:49 it's the IP address and you don't

19:50 actually know who Googled and you can't

19:52 really prove anything with that. But it

19:54 is something that's kind of like letting

19:55 you get a little bit of information from

19:57 the noise versus like something you

19:59 posted a job hiring like that's pretty

20:01 direct in the line. And some people have

20:03 definitions that kind of split those up.

20:05 I was just curious if you had any sort

20:07 of or like no this is like an overall

20:09 thing and then it really is something

20:10 where you can dive into the minutia but

20:12 don't don't separate them I suppose.

20:16 >> Got it. Yeah. I think they they still

20:18 fall into the same

20:19 >> Yeah. um

20:22 strategy of reaching out to people for a

20:24 specific region. Though, yeah, if you're

20:25 using in intentbased signaling at a

20:28 company level with the where the

20:29 upstream data isn't super you don't have

20:32 a ton of confidence in that, then it

20:34 might not be as successful as something

20:35 that's like a very specific trigger or

20:39 uh or signal for a company or individual

20:42 that you saw on the news or based on

20:44 something specific that they did. But I

20:46 think that's an interesting comment that

20:48 that I'll agree with that some some

20:51 triggers or signals are stronger than

20:53 others.

20:54 >> And um and so that's why I recommend

20:57 teams to you know map out all of these

21:00 that you think are going to work. Some

21:02 some will inevitably work stronger than

21:04 than others like the the hiring what

21:07 reference that you just made. Um you

21:09 know just because somebody is hiring

21:11 doesn't mean that they're investing more

21:13 in in their

21:14 >> Yeah. uh their their function overall

21:16 and that it's going to land. Um but it

21:20 means that it could. So with the

21:23 different plays that you have, some will

21:25 certainly be stronger than others, but

21:26 it's good to at least list them all out

21:28 and and and run them all.

21:31 >> What are if I'm sitting here and I'm

21:32 going, "Oh, cool. I really need, you

21:35 know, I I really want to have these

21:36 triggers in here." And besides calling

21:38 you up, Dan, and being like, "Dan, help

21:39 me." like if somebody wanted to get the

21:41 process started themselves or kind of

21:42 kick the tires on it, uh like how would

21:45 you recommend starting with building out

21:47 that list? Like you talked about like

21:48 working through them, but like are there

21:51 like a core three or five that everyone

21:53 should really consider and maybe not

21:55 necessarily use, but at least start

21:57 there and see does this make sense? And

21:59 then once you get to that point, you

22:00 know, how do you brainstorm around ideas

22:03 to you mentioned using SEC filings and

22:06 so like, you know, how do that might be

22:08 something where somebody's like, whoa, I

22:09 would never thought of that, but

22:10 actually, you know what, that actually

22:11 might be helpful. Like what is the

22:13 process around that?

22:15 >> It's going to be unique to whoever

22:19 you're selling to.

22:20 >> Yeah. And so

22:22 what I would do if I was a a sales

22:25 leader in one of these companies that's

22:28 trying to build these out is think

22:31 critically or or talk to

22:34 um I guess your reps, the the marketing

22:37 team around why people buy. Like what's

22:40 what's happening in that organization

22:42 that that means that they're they have a

22:45 higher likelihood of buying. Like I I

22:47 would actually probably talk to the a

22:50 bunch of customers like five to 10

22:52 recent customers around like what what

22:56 made you guys in market for a tool like

22:59 ours and then think through how how can

23:02 you methodically find triggers like

23:05 that. And when it comes to building it

23:08 out, you don't need to you don't

23:11 actually need to vibe code a unique

23:14 clawed agent to build this. A lot of the

23:17 sales engagement platforms, they're

23:18 they're actually investing in um making

23:23 it easier for individual reps even to

23:26 build these intentbased triggers that

23:28 that do all of those steps that I

23:30 mentioned all within the same platform.

23:32 And they'll they'll the first ones that

23:34 that I've seen are ones that a lot of

23:38 folks are already reaching out to. So,

23:40 reaching out after funding

23:42 announcements, after

23:44 new job uh changes, job postings, those

23:49 are probably the the ones that that I

23:50 that I see a lot of. You could ask your

23:52 CEO like what

23:54 >> what uh types of outreach emails are are

23:58 you getting all the time? And that's

23:59 probably the ones that everybody is

24:01 doing. And so there's some value in

24:03 that, but I think what's more valuable

24:05 is this bespoke ones that are unique to

24:07 your persona and

24:10 >> the because that those are the ones that

24:13 your peers probably aren't

24:16 >> um

24:17 >> doing. You're not part of a wave of

24:18 noise when something happens, right?

24:20 you're you're something unique and it

24:22 and it to some degree it makes you

24:24 >> it kind of demonstrates you understand

24:26 their business better because you

24:28 understand better when to reach out to

24:29 them than other folks might or at least

24:32 from a unique perspective because it's

24:34 like you know getting the SEC filings

24:36 and everyone reaches out to you as soon

24:38 as you do your filings which you know

24:39 happened to us I got like a flood of

24:41 like a hundred emails and outreach at

24:43 that exact moment I was like whoa

24:47 >> apparently everyone is aware that we

24:48 just did this and I I didn't even think

24:50 it'd be a blip on the radar. Now,

24:52 obviously, there I'm sure there's

24:53 automation and people weren't actually

24:55 actively paying attention to us, but I

24:57 could see how like something else in our

24:59 business changing and somebody reaches

25:01 out because of a very unique thing that

25:04 they they were monitoring for would make

25:06 them at least stand out just because I

25:08 wouldn't have 100 other emails to be

25:10 kind of overwhelmed by.

25:12 >> Yeah, that's exactly right. um like how

25:15 how can you stand out from the noise and

25:17 getting creative and figuring out what

25:19 are those bespoke signals that that

25:22 aren't necessarily in in the offtheshelf

25:25 um sales engagement platforms but you

25:27 can build either with an AI agent

25:29 builder or yourself with your your own

25:33 claude or or Codex like tool.

25:35 >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, I love your point on the

25:39 um, having like the the voice of the

25:41 customer, the sitting down with your

25:43 customers that you know, the ones that

25:44 like to collaborate with you and be

25:46 like, "Hey, like can you do you mind

25:47 just giving us a little bit more

25:48 information, helping us understand, you

25:50 know, where we could go for that?" Um,

25:53 and from there, is it just like kind of

25:55 sitting down and like having brainstorm

25:57 sessions to figure out, okay, they said

25:59 this, what are some ways that we could

26:01 potentially look at that or like do you

26:02 have any recommendations on how to

26:04 process that information?

26:06 um you know on how to get that that

26:08 great feedback from your customer and

26:09 then turn it into an actual plan.

26:14 >> Yeah,

26:16 it's almost similar to a founder doing

26:21 customer discovery for what is the

26:24 product that that I should buy.

26:26 >> Yeah.

26:26 >> And it it requires just synthesizing a

26:31 number of conversations and finding

26:33 commonalities. Mhm.

26:35 >> Um, so

26:38 I I would just ask the the champion on

26:41 all the the recent deals.

26:44 um like what what made right now

26:48 the right time for you to consider a

26:52 solution like ours?

26:54 >> And um just let them let them chat a

26:58 little bit and you might find that there

27:00 are

27:03 uh my guess is that there'll be just a

27:05 couple reasons of why most of your

27:08 customers buy. It's either the business

27:10 is reaching a certain stage where it's

27:13 having this acute pain now that they

27:15 didn't before or uh or maybe there's

27:19 something else going on in the business.

27:21 It in my experience it's rare that um

27:24 you know a a business is always in

27:27 market for a product all the time. Um,

27:31 and and so I mean maybe they're having

27:33 trouble with like another solution that

27:35 they already had in place, but it's like

27:37 it's just mapping out what were they

27:39 doing before and why did that become

27:42 problematic now versus a year ago and I

27:46 think with enough conversations you

27:47 should be able to have um a handful of

27:50 insights around what was the what was

27:52 the the delta that what was the change

27:55 that happened in the business and then I

27:57 would go a layer deeper around Okay,

28:00 because you had this change in the

28:01 business, how can the outside world

28:03 observe that this is going on or what's

28:06 what's a signal that this is going on? I

28:08 I might ask them. So, I'm just curious

28:10 like when that switch happened like can

28:13 you tell for any of your peers when this

28:15 is also happening and and just hear what

28:16 they

28:18 >> Yeah.

28:18 >> Uh they say and that would be your

28:21 indication that this is a signal that I

28:23 could try to find with the help of AI

28:26 tools.

28:27 >> Yeah. I think you also just made a

28:29 really good um a really good pitch on

28:32 why people need to document their

28:34 discovery calls and actually take good

28:35 notes and get all the information

28:37 because it can turn around and actually

28:38 get them better lead genen if they've

28:40 got that data to then be able to

28:42 leverage back into getting them more

28:44 leads if they get that discovery notes.

28:46 But if you don't capture that

28:47 information, tough luck. You're not

28:49 going to be able to go in and synthesize

28:51 like you're saying. Um well, cool. You

28:53 know, we're at the half hour mark. I

28:55 want to respect your time. Uh but before

28:57 I let you go, I always like to ask

28:59 everybody like if somebody's listening

29:00 in and they were gonna have one

29:02 takeaway, like one thing that they need

29:03 to apply uh to their business after

29:06 listening, like what would that be?

29:13 Send good

29:16 outreach to the right people.

29:18 >> Nice.

29:19 >> As simple as that.

29:20 >> Yeah. uh and AI can help make that more

29:24 efficient, but you you got to be

29:26 effective before you're efficient. And

29:28 so send good outreach and once that

29:31 works, then you can scale it up.

29:33 >> Nice. Appreciate it, Dan. Thank you for

29:35 coming on. Thanks for having me.