Charlie Hauck, Part 2: Referrals, Introductions, and Earning Trust

Transcript

0:02 We got another episode of Tailwind. We

0:04 have Charlie back with us today because

0:06 last time we didn't get to referrals and

0:08 we really wanted to talk about it, but

0:09 we were having too much fun talking

0:11 about prospecting. Uh, so he's back.

0:13 He's going to provide a little bit more

0:15 information. Charlie, any other thoughts

0:16 before we just start diving in? Um,

0:19 look, um, I I as we go through this

0:22 chapter today, I don't want to diminish,

0:24 uh, the fact that there's a lot of

0:25 people and a lot of businesses that rely

0:27 on cold calls and the most basic and

0:30 fundamental types of prospecting that

0:32 most every one of us

0:34 >> had to work our way through at the

0:36 beginning of our careers. So although I

0:39 am uh I'm a 36 year old business as we

0:44 currently or 36 37 year old business and

0:47 we only work on referrals basically. I

0:50 don't mean to diminish the power and the

0:52 necessity to be able to be a highly

0:55 efficient and highly effective cold call

0:57 performer. So, um, one of them is more

1:00 efficient and more effective, but one of

1:02 them is a great, um,

1:06 >> college of hard knocks, if if I can use

1:09 that term.

1:10 >> If you're not tough enough to make cold

1:12 calls,

1:14 >> you're probably going to struggle in a

1:15 lot of parts of being in the business

1:17 development world. So, I appreciate the

1:20 uh I saw another one of your posts where

1:22 you had somebody on you were talking

1:23 about cold calls and the discipline

1:26 >> and all that stuff is true. So, it's not

1:29 a do this or that. You should be both

1:33 skilled in those arenas. So, thanks for

1:35 for giving us all an opportunity to talk

1:37 about that reality of business

1:39 development and prospecting.

1:41 Yeah, you know, I think uh there's it's

1:44 different tools for different needs of

1:46 the business. And you know, I've had

1:48 somebody say to me in the past like,

1:49 "Look, a referral is great. Uh but

1:52 sometimes the only way to get into an

1:53 organization or into a new industry is

1:55 through a cold call." And you might be

1:57 able to eventually start using referrals

1:59 once you establish yourself, but it's a

2:01 it's giving you opportunity to have

2:02 conversations you wouldn't otherwise be

2:04 able to have. So

2:05 >> yeah,

2:05 >> um, as effective as referrals are, and I

2:07 think it's what, 50% 80% more likely

2:10 that a deal is going to go through if

2:12 it's a referral, uh, you know, that's

2:14 great and you want to have that, but you

2:16 know, have a balanced toolkit, I guess.

2:18 >> Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, look, I admit I,

2:22 um, I did a lot of cold calls when I got

2:25 into this consulting business.

2:27 >> Yeah.

2:27 >> And, um, I'm going to share something

2:30 that people will be like, "Click, I'm

2:31 out of here." Um, I went 0 for I think

2:35 four months.

2:37 >> Yeah.

2:37 >> Um, and I just found out it wasn't I did

2:41 them because in a way it's the it's like

2:45 going to the gym. You're you're never

2:47 going to set your personal record for

2:49 what you lift if you don't do the if you

2:51 don't do the grunt work long enough.

2:54 >> Yeah. And and so I did the grunt work

2:56 and I learned that I I was wasn't

3:00 particularly good at it. I I can train

3:03 it. That's a big part of my business,

3:05 but it just I I never felt the comfort

3:09 and I think it showed in the people I

3:10 was talking to. Um I

3:15 that I just know that I was also

3:18 starving. So um I had to do something.

3:22 And it when I got started,

3:25 I had to do it because that's what in a

3:28 way you pay the price.

3:29 >> Yeah.

3:30 >> So, I was willing to pay the price and I

3:32 learned a lot of lessons. Um, but I

3:35 really I I just I didn't want I was

3:38 impatient.

3:39 >> And so, I I f finally just created this

3:43 belief that

3:46 if I was brave enough to make cold

3:47 calls, I could be brave enough to ask

3:49 for referrals. It's the same. What am I

3:52 afraid of most?

3:54 >> Either or. Take your pick. There isn't a

3:56 right or a wrong. So, I I figured out

3:59 what worked well for me. Um, and I've I

4:03 had a guy that worked for me 20 years

4:05 ago. Best cold calling machine I've ever

4:07 seen.

4:08 >> Yeah.

4:09 >> Just unbelievably good at um and there

4:13 there's some accounts we picked up while

4:15 he was working with me. Was just

4:17 amazing. But um he could do it way way

4:21 way better than I could.

4:23 >> Um and he learned to live in it and and

4:27 good for him. It's not he's I'm better

4:29 than he is or he's better than I am.

4:30 We're just different parts of the same

4:33 team.

4:34 >> Yeah. And play your strengths, right? If

4:36 you can do if you can get more ROI out

4:38 of the referrals, why why take away time

4:40 from referral activity, right?

4:43 >> Yeah. I I'm um I'm not a believer that

4:45 as an entrepreneur

4:47 or at any part of any any of the things

4:50 that we venture into, you have to learn

4:52 how to do everything.

4:54 >> Like if you're a new business owner, you

4:55 got to learn how to do everything. Um I

4:58 I almost can't find anything more

5:01 disruptive to an entrepreneur's success.

5:04 Um,

5:05 >> and and so,

5:07 you know, yes, all entrepreneurs

5:09 probably need to prospect some,

5:11 >> but if like if the guy's a software

5:14 genius,

5:15 I'd want that guy doing software. If I

5:17 was the owner of that company and I was

5:19 that guy. So, um, yeah, but look, cold

5:23 calls, uh, a million in one lessons

5:26 every week that you do cold calls and,

5:29 uh, hopefully people have enough support

5:32 and enough of a an anchor with a manager

5:35 that can help people learn those lessons

5:38 and not just say, "Well, you got to

5:41 figure it out on your own." Worst worst

5:43 managers in the world have that as an

5:45 answer.

5:46 >> Yeah. No, you definitely got to help

5:47 them out with that.

5:48 >> Yeah.

5:49 you know, were you um when you were

5:51 doing that cold calling for the first

5:53 four months, were you also doing

5:54 referrals at that point in time or was

5:56 there a decision that you had to make to

5:57 switch?

5:58 >> Um I um any of us that have um

6:03 look, I think if if people don't get

6:06 told that referrals don't just come from

6:09 your business arena,

6:11 >> um I'm lucky I live in a town outside of

6:13 Philadelphia. I grew up here. My wife

6:16 grew up here. Um, we've basically lived

6:20 here forever. Uh,

6:23 for reasons beyond our business, I don't

6:25 think we're allowed to move away. Um,

6:29 but, uh, based on some familial

6:31 connections to this community, but um, I

6:34 I tried referrals

6:37 um,

6:38 and I I I I planted seeds, I think, with

6:41 asking for referrals and that helped me,

6:44 but I think they had to percolate. I

6:46 think they had to germinate and start to

6:50 come out of the ground. And so the part

6:52 that I love about cold calls, as much as

6:55 I don't like them, there is something

6:56 that I love about them,

6:59 I I think that the karmic gods of the

7:03 world smile on people that do the things

7:06 they have to do, even if they don't like

7:08 them.

7:09 >> Yeah.

7:09 >> And I did not like making cold calls.

7:12 And so I had a a recipe of 15 cold calls

7:17 every day.

7:19 >> Mhm.

7:20 >> And um I committed to that and I kept my

7:23 scorecard. And

7:25 those that discipline told me I could do

7:28 things that for other reasons I

7:31 struggled with at that point in my life.

7:33 And so I love the power that that

7:35 discipline teaches us. And if you're

7:38 going to make it in the business

7:39 development world,

7:41 man, there's a lot of um a lot of bad

7:46 experiences. Not like, oh, someone

7:50 stabbed you or anything, but there's a

7:52 lot of heartbreak and self-doubt and

7:55 there's a lot of weeks of like, what the

7:58 heck am I doing here? Do I actually

8:00 belong here? But it taught you how to

8:02 see beyond a call, a day, a week as the

8:08 definition of your career.

8:10 >> Yeah. Yeah. It's the resilience. You

8:13 you're just going to be forced, right?

8:15 >> Yeah.

8:16 >> So, if I'm a if I'm a business owner or

8:18 a seller that has been using cold

8:20 calling and is going, "All right, well,

8:23 you've convinced me I should check out

8:24 doing referrals, you know, how how do

8:26 you recommend getting started? What's

8:28 what's my beginning? What's my step

8:30 one?" Yeah, I I I think that um

8:37 you have to you have to recognize

8:40 my belief. Okay. So, no, you don't have

8:43 to. I believe

8:45 >> you

8:46 >> if you can deliver beyond the product or

8:50 service that's on your catalog page,

8:53 I'll just use that as a generic

8:55 reference. Okay. If you deliver more

8:58 than that,

9:00 whether it's on the front end, you're

9:02 better at getting things done before the

9:05 deal is signed and after the delivery

9:09 has taken place. Your customer service

9:12 and followup and true commitment to did

9:16 I live up to the promise we made to you?

9:19 Mhm.

9:19 >> If you can deliver that consistently,

9:24 you will generate the opportunity to

9:26 say, "Hey, would you mind sharing your

9:28 success with me with other people that

9:30 trust you?"

9:32 >> Yeah.

9:32 >> And and so I serviced and serviced and

9:37 serviced and serviced my client base.

9:40 And after a while, I I like, "Hey,

9:45 would you in a way pay me for this extra

9:48 service?" And and they're like, "Well,

9:50 I'm not going to write you another

9:51 check." No, would you just introduce me

9:53 to someone that you think could would

9:55 appreciate this as much as you do? And

9:58 so I think that the opportunity to to

10:02 create referrals or a referral

10:04 relationship

10:06 starts the moment you say, "Hey, I don't

10:08 know if we can do business, but can we

10:10 have a conversation?"

10:12 What happens? You become trustworthy,

10:16 believable, and then if you're better

10:19 than a product pitcher and you

10:21 understand the business opportunity

10:23 you're helping someone with, you become

10:25 a profit partner. And at the end of the

10:28 day, your business and my business are

10:30 here to generate profit. And if somebody

10:32 sees you as profit valuable,

10:35 >> they're going to want to help you

10:36 succeed. So I believe that my genuine

10:40 interest in Austin Bule's success

10:43 becomes reciprocated

10:45 and the opportunity to say, "Hey, could

10:47 I ask you to introduce me to someone

10:50 that you think might appreciate this

10:52 type of conversation?"

10:54 So, I just serviced the hell out of my

10:57 client base. Um, and at one point, the

11:02 guy that got me into this this business

11:03 said, "You're going to put yourself out

11:05 of business

11:07 because you're going to help everybody

11:08 so much they're going to get better and

11:10 leave you."

11:11 >> Yeah.

11:11 >> And I found the exact opposite happened.

11:15 And so, I have clients that have been

11:17 with me for 30 plus years. not every

11:21 every year, every week, but ongoing.

11:24 They call us for all the services that

11:25 Growth Dynamics offers, but they've also

11:28 generously said, "Hey,

11:31 we have this other company that we do

11:33 work with

11:34 500 miles away. Can I introduce you to

11:36 that CEO?"

11:38 >> Duh. Yeah. So, um I

11:44 I deliver more than the contract.

11:47 Um, I don't deny I I I believe we're in

11:51 a way physicians or healers and I

11:54 believe I should never withhold medicine

11:56 if it helps if it helps that patient get

11:59 better.

12:00 >> But I do believe we have to value that.

12:02 And the value that I ask for is can we

12:05 talk about if I really help you, will

12:07 you

12:09 you give me the time back to help you by

12:12 not making me cold call in prospect? And

12:15 I tell people that's the way my my world

12:17 stays in balance.

12:19 >> Yeah. Um I like starting with the

12:22 relationship and doing all of that in

12:24 order to build it. And what's the worst

12:25 that happens? You have very satisfied

12:27 clients or customers. You know, that's

12:29 not a that's not a bad world to live in.

12:31 >> No.

12:32 >> At all.

12:33 >> Um do you set any sort of expectation

12:36 early in the engagement that you might

12:37 be coming back for a referral or is it

12:39 I'm going to hit a bid then I know what

12:42 play to run? I absolutely love that you

12:44 asked that question. Of all the

12:46 questions people ask me, that's the one

12:48 I kind of can't wait for people to ask.

12:50 When do you ask? And I tell my prospects

12:57 >> that there will be a fee for our

12:59 engagement, whatever part of their

13:01 business I help them with, whatever of

13:04 our offerings they avail themselves of.

13:06 And I say there will be a fee and we'll

13:08 clearly discuss that fee. But

13:13 there is more that you will pay. You're

13:16 like, "What's that?" I said, "I will

13:18 service you beyond your expectation, but

13:20 you will I hate that line. Why did I

13:22 just say that?" Um,

13:24 >> it's all good.

13:25 >> I will deliver

13:27 everything you expected from me. Um, and

13:31 more if you asked for it, but you've got

13:33 to pay for it. And they're like, "Well,

13:34 what's that going to cost?" I said it

13:36 recost all it will cost you is you have

13:39 to be willing to be someone that

13:41 generates a referral for me.

13:44 >> So I ask people before they sign up with

13:46 us

13:47 >> if this is going to be a problem. Let's

13:49 talk about it now.

13:51 Now does everybody give me a referral?

13:54 No. I'm not going to lie and say it's

13:56 100% foolproof. It's not.

13:59 >> Yeah.

14:00 >> Um and I'm okay with that. I I I don't

14:04 browbeat people and send them reminders.

14:07 No, I don't worry about it. I the karmic

14:11 effect

14:13 pays the bill and not everybody pays

14:15 equally into that fund for me and growth

14:18 dynamics. So I tell people before they

14:23 agree that that's how I work because 99%

14:28 of those people came to me through

14:29 referrals.

14:30 >> Yeah. just it's the gift that keeps on

14:33 giving. Um

14:34 >> it's it's wonderful.

14:36 >> Yeah.

14:36 >> Yeah.

14:37 >> I So let's say I'm sitting here and I

14:40 go, "That sounds great. I haven't been

14:42 doing that, but I would like to still

14:44 ask for my existing clients to to give

14:47 those referrals." uh how would you

14:49 navigate the uh the situations where you

14:51 haven't set that up or maybe you forget

14:52 to set during the

14:53 >> sales process which is really the one

14:57 people find themselves in more commonly

14:59 because they're afraid to ask the way I

15:01 do and that's okay. Um number one people

15:06 have to admit the challenge. Hey, I want

15:09 to know if I can ask you for some help

15:12 and I admit it makes me slightly

15:13 uncomfortable or I'm not exactly sure

15:16 how. And so we're all programmed as

15:19 human beings to rescue others. And so

15:21 when someone says I'm distressed or

15:23 uncomfortable, like well what can I help

15:25 you with, Charlie? What is it? You can

15:27 tell me anything. So they effectively

15:29 open the door for you and then you go to

15:33 the next step which is to ask but not

15:35 ask which in my world of training is you

15:39 put it in the world of let's pretend.

15:41 Let's pretend I wanted to have a

15:43 discussion with you about referrals.

15:45 Would you be comfortable with that?

15:48 So the let's pretend is a magical play.

15:52 It brings the future to the present

15:55 without the risk. Let's pretend I wanted

15:58 to ask you. Would you be okay with that?

16:00 Sure. Now I know it's okay to ask.

16:03 >> Yeah.

16:04 >> And so you you just have to understand

16:09 the the effect. If you go, hey, you have

16:11 to give me referrals. Why haven't you

16:13 given me referrals? That's people like,

16:15 whoa, wait a minute. So you just you

16:18 just say, look, can I ask you something?

16:20 And maybe you've been waiting or maybe

16:23 you're uncomfortable, but if I wanted to

16:26 talk, let's pretend I wanted to talk

16:28 about referrals. Could we have that

16:30 conversation?

16:32 >> Yeah.

16:32 >> And so you just take the anxiety out of

16:36 that conversation.

16:39 >> Um,

16:39 >> yeah. Okay.

16:41 >> And the next part is I think where it

16:45 makes it or breaks it for most people

16:46 who are willing to ask.

16:49 What does it mean to get a referral?

16:51 It's not someone bringing you everything

16:54 but the signed contract.

16:57 >> Yeah.

16:57 >> I never want to employ someone to do the

17:01 work that I'm supposed to do in that in

17:03 that relationship dance. So, if they're

17:07 willing to introduce me,

17:10 I just want them to say I want to

17:12 rehearse them. Hey, can I tell you um

17:15 I've been working with this guy Charlie

17:17 Hal. It's really helped me. Um, I don't

17:20 know if it would be helpful to you, but

17:22 when you and I talk, I kind of hear some

17:24 things that I was familiar with. Would

17:26 you be okay if I introduced you to

17:28 Charlie and let you two have a

17:31 conversation? And if anything happens,

17:34 good for you both. And if it doesn't,

17:37 that's fine, too. There's no

17:39 expectation.

17:40 Yeah.

17:41 >> But um to all the insurance people out

17:44 there, I apologize for what I'm about to

17:47 say. Um

17:50 who are your cousins and uncles and

17:52 brothers and sisters that need to buy

17:54 insurance that you can introduce me to?

17:59 We have all been terrorized by that

18:01 conversation. Like, I got to turn

18:03 somebody over to you that's going to buy

18:05 insurance. I'm not going to do it. let

18:08 me think about it and I'll call you back

18:09 in two weeks. Doesn't happen,

18:11 >> right?

18:12 >> And so I I have referred my financial

18:16 planner, my life insurance guy, but it's

18:21 always, hey, I don't know if he can help

18:23 you, and I don't know if this guy's

18:26 really interested in help, Bob. Can you

18:29 guys have a conversation? And I accept

18:31 wherever you guys end up.

18:34 So the expectation of just

18:39 meet just have a conversation

18:42 is all I ask someone to do in a

18:44 referral.

18:46 >> Yeah.

18:47 >> Yeah. I think uh just like the the

18:48 policy of honesty and then just not

18:51 being pushy with it. You know, I've I've

18:53 made a maybe it was more of an

18:55 introduction. I know people can split

18:57 hairs on the difference between the two.

18:58 >> Yes, I get it. Yeah. But basically, you

19:01 know, somebody I knew was like, "Hey,

19:03 I'd love to talk to this person." And

19:05 I'd never worked with this person. I

19:07 like, "Hey, I know they're a nice

19:08 person. I like talking to them." No idea

19:10 if they're great at what they do or not.

19:12 Um, and I assume they probably were just

19:14 based on interactions, but no proof.

19:17 Talk to the other person. Uh, was able

19:19 to say, "Hey, you know, I know this

19:21 person. I've never worked with them.

19:23 They're really kind. You know, it might

19:25 be worth 30 minutes. worst case, you

19:27 know, you you get to meet meet a cool

19:29 person. And he was like, he's like, I

19:31 don't know. Like, I don't know if I want

19:32 to meet with him. I was like, yeah,

19:33 that's totally fine. Like, I don't know

19:35 what like his quality is. And he went,

19:37 you know what? Like, I'll you let's

19:39 let's talk. At least he's be like a

19:41 pleasant person to be on the other line

19:42 with. They talked. They both got back to

19:44 me like, "Oh my god, that was a great

19:45 conversation. I'm so happy we got

19:47 introduced." And at no point in time was

19:50 I there trying to pedal really force the

19:53 conversation. I was just brutally honest

19:55 about, hey, I think it would be worth

19:57 it, but also happy to say say no on your

20:01 behalf. Easy to navigate it, even though

20:03 that could could feel like a um

20:06 difficult social like interaction at

20:08 that time.

20:09 >> Well, I think the other part where some

20:11 people abuse the the gift of the

20:14 introduction or the connection

20:16 >> is if the other person says, "No, I

20:18 don't want to meet with them."

20:20 >> Yeah. and and they're like, "Well, I

20:23 think I'll just call them anyway."

20:25 >> And they have you say, "Hey, I was going

20:27 to introduce you to my friend Austin

20:28 Buell." And and now Austin says,

20:31 "Thanks, but no thanks." Well, I'm just

20:33 I'm going to do an end around you,

20:35 Charlie, and go call Austin. NFW.

20:39 >> Yeah,

20:40 >> that is There's almost nothing less

20:43 professional than that. And there are

20:47 all these

20:49 messed up practices that people like,

20:52 well, you just you can't take no for an

20:54 answer. The hell you can't. No is okay.

20:57 It's a decision kept you from having a

20:59 conversation that was dead before it

21:01 started. Um, you disrespected someone's

21:04 right to say no. So, a lot of people uh

21:09 just they don't care about

21:12 the integrity of the action. They just

21:15 want an opportunity to take action. And

21:18 >> yeah,

21:19 >> I'm uh I'm appalled at that behavior.

21:24 >> Yeah, the there's nothing wrong with it.

21:26 No, I mean, you say that during a call,

21:28 right? Why would you not say that during

21:29 a referral conversation, too? I mean,

21:32 you can treat it with the same level of

21:33 uh professionality that you're talking

21:35 about.

21:36 >> Um

21:37 >> sorry, go for it.

21:38 >> Yeah. No, it's um um if you if you do it

21:43 if you do whatever whether it's cold

21:45 calling consistently, referrals and

21:47 introductions consistently,

21:49 you should be able to know your pace.

21:53 >> Mhm.

21:53 >> And like I know if I give out four

21:56 referrals, I'm probably going to end up

21:57 with two.

21:59 >> Yeah. So, I'm I'm always trying to give

22:01 out more referrals and and so that keeps

22:04 my pipeline of referral and so I know if

22:06 I get a referral a done correctly, I got

22:10 a 50 to 60% chance of signing a contract

22:14 with someone.

22:16 If I got

22:19 24 pieces of business of the business I

22:21 typically want to do, if I got 24 pieces

22:24 of business a year on my contract

22:28 engagement work, I would have more work

22:30 than I could probably do.

22:32 >> Yeah.

22:33 >> So, I can accept a no as sort of a

22:38 a quality control mechanism.

22:41 >> You're not going to overbook yourself if

22:44 you allow that. know that it's created

22:47 space. So I respect the no tremendously.

22:51 >> I mean I take 50%. If you're telling me

22:54 I can reach out to somebody and ask them

22:56 for four referrals and I get two clients

22:57 out of that every time. That's

22:59 tremendous.

23:00 >> Yeah. And the other part of it that I

23:02 found when someone else says I paid him

23:06 this much and it was worth it.

23:09 >> The price shopping doesn't happen.

23:12 >> Yeah. Someone said, "Yeah, it was it

23:17 wasn't cheap and it was worth what I

23:19 paid for it. The results were

23:20 outstanding."

23:22 Good.

23:24 >> Yeah.

23:24 >> People like, "All right, so and so said

23:27 you were really good. What's it take to

23:28 do?" They're asking me, "What does it

23:30 take to do business?"

23:32 And I don't get a whole lot. I make

23:34 people say, "Can I make payments?" I'll

23:37 talk I'll deal with payments.

23:39 Um, but I don't get people saying, "Oh,

23:41 I'm not going to pay that much." I'm

23:43 like, "All right, I'll that that

23:45 argument goes away with referrals in a

23:47 lot of cases."

23:48 >> Yeah. Social proof is already part of

23:50 the mechanism without having to try to

23:52 figure out another way to get it in

23:53 there.

23:54 >> Yeah.

23:54 >> So, I just um look, I I um we don't run

24:00 a clock on our clients.

24:03 it. I have some guys that start with us

24:05 and um some of them refer to themselves

24:09 as as our nephews now. Um they're like I

24:12 talk to them so much I think we're

24:13 family and it's for a while that's what

24:15 it feels like. Um so I don't ever want

24:18 to run a clock on a client.

24:20 >> Yeah.

24:20 >> Um but I do want to value my time and

24:24 and so they understand what the process

24:27 is for both of us. And some of them,

24:31 man, they're just like, "Yo, slow down.

24:35 Let me catch up a little bit here." But,

24:38 um, I I love

24:41 the joy they get in helping people

24:44 >> and I love the fact that it's proof that

24:46 my model keeps working.

24:49 >> Um, and I love um the more you give, the

24:52 more you get as a a kind of a life

24:57 credo. and referral-driven businesses I

25:01 think live that and that's a core value

25:05 here at growth dynamics and in all parts

25:07 of my life.

25:09 >> Yeah. So structure of uh the referral

25:12 motion establish it during the sales

25:15 process if possible obviously don't

25:17 don't not do it because you missed that

25:19 one then

25:21 >> provide value

25:23 >> then

25:24 >> breach the conversation lightly. It

25:26 seems like you don't need to you can

25:28 just say like hey would love to be able

25:29 to bring it up if you already

25:30 established that you know expectation

25:32 makes it easy then uh then make the ask.

25:36 I mean is that pretty muchizing it

25:39 correctly

25:40 >> and and give the person you're asking

25:42 for referrals. You can tell me no. If

25:46 you're not comfortable feel free to say

25:47 Charlie thanks but no thanks.

25:50 >> That you tell if hey yeah I'll help you.

25:52 You can tell that person they're allowed

25:54 to say no. And here's my promise. If

25:56 they say no,

25:59 that ended. I'm not going to sneak

26:02 around and reach out to them. Wink wink.

26:05 No way. Um because then people like,

26:07 man,

26:09 >> you said they could say no and then you

26:10 dogged me. I don't ever want to be that

26:13 guy.

26:13 >> Yeah. And then once you've got the let's

26:16 go for it. I mean, are you guiding them

26:18 on who exactly you want to talk to? Are

26:20 you letting them be a little bit more

26:22 more like self like guiding on who they

26:25 think you talk to?

26:26 >> I I look inside your brain and my brain.

26:30 Um I it scares me to think how many

26:32 names I've forgotten.

26:34 >> Right there.

26:35 >> And so when somebody says, "Hey, do you

26:37 know anybody who could

26:39 like there's probably a couple hundred

26:41 thousand names stuck in my brain

26:43 somewhere?"

26:44 >> Anybody that's 70 years old has, you

26:47 know, they've known a whole town. at

26:50 some point in their life. Um, I don't

26:52 want to talk to everybody. So, when we

26:55 can knock the sides off that boulder and

26:59 let it shrink down to a manageable

27:02 amount of data to consider,

27:05 >> um, that's helpful. Here's who I'm

27:07 looking for. Entrepreneurs that are

27:11 doing everything in their business,

27:13 including selling.

27:15 um people that run small to medium-siz

27:18 sales teams,

27:20 people that are looking to hire

27:22 salespeople and they're really not

27:25 they haven't been real successful and

27:27 they're not real comfortable doing it

27:29 and anybody that has to have regular

27:32 conversations where they have to collect

27:34 business decisions. So I kind of start

27:36 with a smaller set and I end up with

27:39 regular conversations to collect

27:40 business decisions because I I don't

27:43 think many of the people in your world

27:46 or my world go to a cocktail party and

27:49 see all their friends and go, "Hey man,

27:51 I'm really sucking this year. Could you

27:53 find me a sales trainer?" I I don't

27:55 think that social networking fills my

27:59 funnel.

28:00 >> Yeah. But a lot of people know a

28:02 contractor or someone in the

28:04 distribution business. So I want to just

28:09 not that they've said I'm struggling.

28:11 Would they be willing to talk someone

28:13 that might be able to help them grow

28:14 their business?

28:16 >> What are your thoughts on uh showing up

28:19 with a list of names? Because we have

28:20 like LinkedIn today which means that I

28:22 can go look at you know one of my

28:24 connections connections and maybe pick

28:26 out people who meet that ICP. Would you

28:28 recommend that or do you think that's

28:29 too limiting in uh the results?

28:32 >> I don't I I I'll take no position on

28:36 that.

28:37 >> Okay.

28:38 >> All right. Um because I find people

28:42 um

28:43 I I honestly have never looked at

28:45 anybody's

28:47 connections and said, "Hey, I want to

28:48 get into that one."

28:50 >> I know a lot of I know a lot of people

28:52 do it, so I I can't condemn it one or

28:55 cheer for it either way.

28:57 >> Um I have just been more

29:00 I'm looking for the the built-in

29:03 LinkedIn in your brain.

29:05 >> Yeah. And so you're using your ICP

29:07 definition essentially to then see if it

29:10 rings any bells as you're saying it. And

29:11 they like this part you just said

29:14 reminds me of John

29:15 >> and this part reminds me of Susan. And

29:17 so like it's helping them whittle it

29:19 down versus just

29:21 >> throwing it out there. Yeah. Y makes

29:22 sense.

29:23 >> Yeah. And and so I kind of I I give a

29:26 description of what that business is and

29:29 maybe they're, you know, they're they're

29:31 struggling because of new business,

29:34 startup, juggling everything, and the

29:38 one thing they don't seem to have a lot

29:39 of time for is business development. How

29:41 do they

29:42 >> get over that hurdle? And so say, "Oh,

29:44 yeah, I know he's working way too many

29:46 hours." And they they make the

29:47 connection.

29:49 >> Yeah. Um

29:50 >> and I I also have been I've been very um

29:56 focused on a particular business group.

29:59 Uh I do a lot of work with the world of

30:01 manufacturers reps.

30:03 >> Mhm.

30:04 >> And that's an endless network. Um and

30:09 it's an endless network from rep to rep

30:11 to rep. Then it's from rep in this

30:14 industry to a rep in that industry. And

30:16 so that opens another one. And then the

30:19 companies that they represent,

30:22 they're like, "Hey, we've been working

30:23 with this trainer guy. You guys might

30:25 want to talk to him because your your

30:27 territory people come in here and suck

30:29 and and then they go to the wholesalers

30:32 that they work with and they go, "Hey,

30:35 you got some good guys, but they're

30:36 running around crazy. Can we help? Can I

30:39 suggest you talk to this guy?" I I we've

30:42 done so much business through that

30:45 networking in that food chain no matter

30:49 which way those spokes go.

30:51 >> Yeah. Now, was that was that deliberate

30:54 to try to get that motion going or was

30:56 it just a natural result of as more and

30:59 more people in that industry and

31:01 vertical started to get to know you, it

31:03 just became a natural thing that came

31:05 out of that?

31:06 >> I I wish I could tell you I was so

31:08 smart. It was right from day one. that

31:11 I'd be a liar. Um um but I look I'm not

31:16 great at many things. Uh but I have a

31:19 couple things that I'm really great at

31:21 and I try to stay in that small box as

31:24 much as possible because once I'm not

31:27 great, I'm pretty much below average.

31:30 And so, um, I saw this

31:34 and then I started to

31:37 asking, "Hey,

31:40 who else is in your close group of reps?

31:43 Your friends."

31:45 >> Yeah. Well, that took me from Philly to

31:48 Indie to Pittsburgh to Dallas to Florida

31:52 to Chicago to Northern California,

31:54 Southern California by getting to each

31:56 one of those and asking again.

32:00 >> And then it got me to this manufacturer

32:02 and this big wholesale network. Um, and

32:06 so

32:09 I I think you and I talked about it in

32:11 the first chapter.

32:14 Your business sense has to be better

32:16 than your product or service sense.

32:19 >> Mhm.

32:19 >> And so, um, I'm really good at business

32:24 sense. Really good. And I see

32:28 connect the dots opportunities.

32:31 And so I've been very deliberate.

32:33 >> Yeah, that makes sense. Hey, you guys

32:36 work down line with these wholesalers.

32:39 Which one of them would you be willing

32:43 >> and we've had some really great

32:44 relationships at every step of the food

32:47 chain.

32:49 >> So, we're coming up on time, but I got

32:50 two more questions for you if you don't

32:52 mind. Okay,

32:53 >> I'm good. Yeah.

32:54 >> The uh the first one is, do we miss

32:57 anything? Is there anything that we

32:59 wanted you wanted to discuss for

33:00 referrals that we need to make sure we

33:02 hit before we wrap?

33:03 >> Um, yeah. One thing and people are

33:06 always asking me what's the best way to

33:08 get referrals. So go back to our

33:10 original question and I kind of left

33:13 this piece out. The best way to get them

33:16 is to give them relentlessly

33:18 >> and and by giving them relentlessly I I

33:21 mean referrals in every part of your

33:23 life. So, refer friends to friends,

33:28 friends to doctors, friends to um

33:32 friends to uh your favorite restaurant,

33:36 friends to we know these people that

33:39 rent this house in the Keys. If you want

33:41 to go, I'll make a connection for you. I

33:43 give referrals to everything.

33:46 >> Yeah.

33:46 >> Because it makes somebody's life easier.

33:49 I don't even know who to talk to. I

33:51 might know somebody.

33:53 So the more you give, the more you get.

33:54 I worry about giving more than getting.

33:57 >> Yeah. Yeah. Leading with value makes

33:59 everything so much easier and it can't

34:01 hurt and at least somebody else's life

34:03 got a little bit better, right? And it's

34:04 like wrong with that.

34:06 >> Yep.

34:07 >> Um and then final question. Somebody's

34:10 listening in. They're excited about

34:12 referrals. They want to start applying

34:13 it. You know, what's their one big

34:14 takeaway that they just must make sure

34:16 that they they take from this uh

34:18 conversation? Um,

34:21 number one,

34:23 a lot of people say, "Doesn't asking for

34:25 referrals make it look like you're not

34:27 successful?"

34:29 And I'm like, "No, I think it's entirely

34:33 opposite. I'm completely comfortable

34:34 with my level of success, and I'd be

34:38 very comfortable sharing that success

34:40 with you and someone else. Um, I'm busy

34:44 enough that I have a full book of

34:46 business of clients that I service. I'd

34:49 like to have more clients. I don't have

34:52 time to prospect. So, I'm actually the

34:55 other end of not successful based on

34:57 referrals. And um,

35:01 it is giving people permission to say no

35:05 and telling them please do not sell me.

35:08 It is not your job. just ask if they

35:11 would be open to a business conversation

35:14 with no expectation of an outcome.

35:17 >> Yeah.

35:18 >> But I went I referenced that insurance.

35:22 You know, you get the 22-year-old kid

35:24 fresh out of college looks like an

35:26 all-American and he's in your living

35:28 room saying, "Well, who else? Who else

35:31 will you connect me to?" cuz I could say

35:34 that has tainted the uh belief in

35:39 referrals so badly.

35:42 >> Well intended. I I'm not saying the

35:44 insurance industry is trying to trash us

35:46 all up. Well, poorly trained.

35:50 >> Yeah. I mean, I think if anyone's not

35:52 doing referrals right now, they really

35:54 need to consider just trying. And I'll

35:56 say uh I'll say from somebody who has

35:59 recently started doing this in their

36:01 career, I it's really easy to just kind

36:04 of start and it's fine to make jokes

36:06 about it and just stumble. It's really

36:08 not one of those things where it's scary

36:10 or you can really like as long as you're

36:12 being polite, you really can fumble it

36:14 as much as you want and just kind of

36:15 learn from there and just keep going.

36:17 >> Yeah. I had my teeth punched out as a

36:19 roofer.

36:20 >> Yeah.

36:21 >> Never had my teeth punched out asking

36:23 for referrals. So, um, and and they look

36:27 okay. So,

36:28 >> you know, I I I think it's um it's like

36:33 cold calling. I know some people love

36:35 cold calling. I don't get that, but it's

36:38 their mindset and I have to honor it and

36:40 respect it. This is a mindset and a life

36:44 decision for me. I do it everywhere.

36:47 I've taken so many of my friends kids to

36:51 their first job.

36:54 um and introduce them to people that I'm

36:55 like, "Hey, I know this person. I know

36:58 this family. I know the character of the

37:01 person I'm talking about. They're new. I

37:03 can't tell you they have all the

37:04 experience that you might want, but I

37:06 can tell you the core character of this

37:09 human being that you're going to get

37:10 introduced to." And um in today's day

37:15 and age with the markets and uh all the

37:18 AI you know AI this AI that look a human

37:23 element where someone says this is

37:26 trustworthy.

37:28 >> Yeah

37:30 >> boy. Irreplaceable

37:33 >> trust is going to get more and more

37:34 important as AI rolls out. Um, yeah. And

37:38 you know, all these kind of tests

37:40 they've done where they ask AI for all

37:41 these answers and they get all this

37:45 stuff.

37:47 >> That's a whole other podcast.

37:48 >> Yeah, I'm not on that one because I'd be

37:50 I'd be the the predictor of doom for all

37:53 of us, but um

37:55 >> there's a place for it. I I just

37:58 >> I'll stick to my I take care of people

38:01 as a person and we'll do that first. So,

38:04 >> love it. All right. Appreciate you,

38:06 Charlie. This is a great one. I'm glad

38:07 we got part two in.

38:09 >> Austin, anytime I can get on and uh

38:12 anybody that communicates with you, I'd

38:15 be happy to help them if they want to be

38:17 introduced.

38:17 >> Sounds great. I'll

38:18 >> do the same for you. Thank you.

38:20 >> Appreciate you, Charlie. Take care.