Brett Keirstead on Sales Coaching, Curiosity, and Human Judgment

Transcript

0:02 We have another episode of Tailwind.

0:04 Today we're joined by Brett. I should

0:06 ask you before Kirstad. Is it?

0:08 >> Yeah, Kirst. There you go.

0:09 >> There we go. All right. And we're

0:10 keeping it raw unedited as we both like

0:12 with it. So, hey Brett, tell us a little

0:14 bit more about yourself.

0:16 >> Yeah, sure. So, it's pleasure to talk to

0:17 you. I uh so I am a what what in the

0:21 world of sales now, I'm a a lifelong

0:24 salesperson. So I uh have had all the

0:27 roles everything from starting out when

0:29 I was 22 years old as a as a BDR SDR to

0:33 an account manager. I've been part of a

0:35 lot of different organizations all the

0:37 way up to CRO level roles and and uh

0:41 have always been a passionate advocate

0:43 of sales and five years ago I published

0:45 a book called we're all salespeople

0:47 which was really the premise that you

0:49 hear a lot when people say we're all

0:51 salespeople we all need to be selling

0:53 and so I published a book under that and

0:56 subsequent to that over the last several

0:58 years have really focused my time and

1:00 energy on coaching the next generation

1:02 you know sales is as we all know often a

1:05 tough industry you know it's like

1:07 lawyers politicians salespeople

1:10 >> and um and I have found however as a

1:13 passionate defender of our of our uh

1:16 profession that the value that a really

1:19 good salesperson provides to the to the

1:21 industry to the marketplace to the

1:23 clients is is is absolutely essential

1:27 and so I now I do a lot of coaching I

1:29 published a coaching app that does

1:30 scenario-based sales coaching which I

1:32 know we'll kind of get into today

1:34 >> and um and excited to be here. I I as

1:37 hopefully you'll see and everybody hears

1:39 I'm very passionate about this subject.

1:41 Um and I really think that it's the

1:44 greatest profession

1:47 talk about

1:48 >> it's too bad that there seems to be a a

1:51 general public perception of what a

1:53 salesperson is.

1:54 >> Yes.

1:54 >> What like a really truly trained great

1:57 salesperson is. And you it almost feels

1:59 like at some point in time maybe we need

2:01 to redefine one of those cuz they're not

2:03 they're not apples to apples.

2:05 >> Um I'm only what I'd say nine months

2:07 into like being like professionally

2:10 trained to be a real professional

2:12 salesperson.

2:13 >> Uh and I used to have like sales jobs

2:15 earlier in my career where it was like

2:17 here's here's a list of people to go

2:19 reach out to get after it versus now

2:22 being like trained and understanding

2:23 what I'm supposed to be doing. And I

2:25 just like these are two different

2:26 worlds. And like the more I learn about

2:28 it, I'm like this is this is not my

2:30 perception from any experience I've had

2:32 in the past. Um it's just it's it's not

2:35 fair. It's like

2:37 >> it's like unjust what's been done to

2:39 like the the profession itself.

2:41 >> Well, it's you know it's unfair because

2:43 look every there are terrible doctors.

2:46 There are terrible everything. You know

2:47 what I mean? And there are bad

2:49 salespeople. there are salespeople that

2:52 h have have caused damage to our

2:54 reputation in industry. But to your

2:56 point, I've tried to break it down and

2:58 and and part of prospecting, which is I

3:01 know the big part of the subject fits

3:03 nicely within it is a a truly

3:06 professional salesperson is their

3:10 responsibility is to bring to the world

3:13 to the marketplace a solution that meets

3:16 a real problem. Right? And and great

3:20 salespeople do that. And you could argue

3:23 like, wow, all the world's problems

3:25 would not be solved if some salesperson

3:27 didn't convince somebody that this they

3:29 had a resolution to the problem. Or else

3:31 people would just there'd be inertia.

3:33 People would not do it. We'd probably

3:34 still be in a horse and buggy

3:36 >> if somebody didn't convince somebody of

3:38 a good idea. So

3:40 >> in sales and that's why part of what

3:42 I've tried to do is bring that level of

3:45 positivity about what we do. the

3:48 importance of the role that we do all

3:50 throughout sales. You know, whether

3:52 you're a newbie that you're just getting

3:54 started in your career or you're

3:55 somebody that's been around for a long

3:57 time, fundamentally, we're still

3:59 delivering the same thing, which is the

4:02 market is out there, people are out

4:04 there with a need for better solutions

4:06 to resolve their issues. And a

4:08 salesperson has a moral obligation to do

4:11 it.

4:12 >> Um, and so, uh, that's really been my

4:15 philosophy. And so when I train and

4:16 coach young salespeople today or these

4:18 folks, I'm always like, you are doing

4:20 God's work. You know, as painful as it

4:23 is, as many people will tell you that

4:25 quit calling me or hang up on you or

4:27 curse you, you have to have a

4:29 fundamental belief in the work that

4:30 you're doing brings value um to the

4:34 market.

4:34 >> Yeah.

4:36 What are some of those core and

4:37 foundational things that as a sales

4:39 leader you need to bring to to create

4:42 this mindset mindset shift that you're

4:44 talking about?

4:45 >> Yeah. And and you know, kind of going

4:47 back to what you said before, a lot of

4:48 times people think, well, I'm not a

4:50 salesperson. I don't want to be a

4:52 salesperson. I don't call me a

4:54 salesperson. You have people that are

4:55 account managers and they work with

4:56 clients like, don't call me a

4:57 salesperson. I'm like,

4:59 >> what would you like for me to call you?

5:01 you know, um what when you're out there

5:03 and a customer articulates that they

5:05 have a need and you offer them a

5:07 solution

5:09 >> and they pay you for that solution, what

5:11 would you like for me to call you?

5:13 >> Um you know, they're like, uh I don't

5:15 know, salesperson like perfect. So part

5:18 of the part of the issue that I find a

5:20 lot in in coaching is that we and and

5:25 this happens a lot in the prospecting

5:26 stage from the very beginning is do you

5:29 believe in yourself and the service and

5:32 the product that you're offering and the

5:34 value it brings or not? Because if you

5:36 don't it's almost impossible especially

5:39 in today's day and age to fake it.

5:41 >> There's just too much coming. There's

5:43 too much noise. There's too much AI.

5:45 there's too much whatever. And if you

5:48 don't demonstrate a confident and

5:50 genuine belief in what you offer and the

5:53 value it brings, you'll crumble under

5:56 objections. So, from a coaching and

5:58 training standpoint, often the first

6:00 thing I want to assess and work with

6:02 people is, do they have a fundamental

6:03 belief in what they're doing?

6:05 >> Um, because you can go a long way with

6:09 passionate belief in what you do. Um,

6:12 and sometimes we're always focused on

6:14 techniques and did they ask the right

6:16 question and a lot of that stuff is good

6:17 and we can get to that, but it I like to

6:20 start with do you understand at a core

6:23 core in your core that what you're doing

6:26 and what you offer brings value.

6:28 >> Yeah.

6:28 >> Um, and you'd be surprised how many

6:30 people don't or they don't understand it

6:32 or they don't believe in it and it's

6:34 very very difficult. So, how do you uh

6:36 what are some tips or guidance or

6:38 recommendations, best practices to to

6:40 get to that understanding if they do or

6:42 they don't? Or is it pretty obvious the

6:44 second you start talking to them?

6:45 >> Well, a lot of times I there's one

6:47 exercise I do. I always call it the um

6:49 uh uh the trade show exercise for

6:52 salespeople. I said, "You ever work at a

6:54 you ever work a booth at a trade show?"

6:56 Like let's say you're in some industry

6:58 >> and you're the booth guy

7:00 >> and um

7:02 >> somebody's walking down the aisle and

7:04 they're stopping at every booth

7:06 >> and

7:07 you know they're like what do you do?

7:09 You know what do you do? And a lot of

7:12 times if you say roleplay that scenario

7:15 with somebody and say hey I've just seen

7:18 14 other people that sound just like

7:21 you. Tell me what is it that is unique

7:24 about you and us as an organization. And

7:28 it's amazing how many people struggle

7:31 with that. They'll start talking about

7:33 features or they'll say generic things

7:35 like, "Well, we have best-in-class

7:37 service stuff that the other 14 guys

7:40 said along the way." And

7:43 >> so by coaching through that exercise and

7:45 getting very detailed into can you under

7:48 pressure in a moment of truth when

7:50 somebody that's important is staring at

7:52 you and asking you to articulate what is

7:54 it that makes you and your company

7:55 unique to me. That's a really really

7:58 good exercise. It's not hard to

8:00 visualize the exercise, but you'd be

8:02 surprised. Um and obviously what we're

8:04 looking for is do you have a compelling

8:07 belief that what you offer is unique?

8:09 Whether it's the problems that you solve

8:11 for a client, the manner in which you do

8:13 it, those are the kinds of things that

8:15 you really want to fair it out.

8:18 >> So when you make that identification,

8:19 what's the the next step to take?

8:21 Obviously, if somebody believes, don't

8:22 mess with it, right? Or unless they

8:24 believe the wrong things, in which case

8:26 maybe tweak it. But what are the next

8:28 steps for somebody then to bring them

8:30 into that belief in

8:31 >> Yeah.

8:32 >> in the right head space. So, a lot of

8:34 what I try to do, and this is what my

8:36 application I developed. Um, I kind of

8:38 got to this realization. There's a lot

8:39 of really good training um, uh,

8:42 frameworks out there. You know, you hear

8:44 them all the time that spinelling or

8:46 Miller Heyman or Medpek or they're all

8:48 awesome, right? There's there's nothing

8:49 inherently um, wrong with any of them.

8:52 My angle though and to to to the way you

8:55 asked it is I try to think

8:58 I I try to replicate scenarios that

9:02 people encounter and then put the rep in

9:06 those scenarios and then coach them

9:08 through how they would perform. So for

9:10 example a scenario-based um and you know

9:13 objection handling and objection

9:15 training is is as old as time. You know,

9:17 when I was in 1990, you know, we went in

9:19 a classroom and we had a piece of paper

9:21 and we learned objection handling. So,

9:23 the idea of objection handling is not

9:25 new. The tools are better. You know, the

9:28 things that we can do today make it a

9:29 little bit easier, but the core

9:30 principle hasn't changed. And so, what I

9:32 try to do is create these scenarios and

9:36 try to get reps to talk through their

9:39 thought process. I don't want people to

9:42 memorize

9:44 um memorize things because as you

9:47 imagine in today's day and age in in

9:50 inauthenticity the opposite of it

9:52 inauthentic memorized responses will

9:55 they'll get you nowhere. Um every

9:58 communication today is designed to be

10:00 very unique and specialized for you to

10:02 get through. So the only way to do that

10:04 is to put reps in scenarios and then

10:07 coach them through that. So, I might

10:08 say, "Hey, what happens when someone

10:10 says, "We really like your proposal, but

10:12 we're going to look at a competitor's

10:14 first." What do you do? You know, what

10:17 do how do you think through that

10:18 scenario? What would you do? And so,

10:20 roleplaying, not just the the

10:24 memorization,

10:26 but really understanding how they think

10:29 is really been what has been a secret

10:32 sauce for me. I don't want to teach

10:34 robots that hear something and respond.

10:37 I want to teach people to think and

10:41 strategize and understand. And frankly,

10:44 one of my fears about AI,

10:47 as you can guess, is people deferring

10:51 thought and strategy to the tool

10:55 um as a as a deterrent to them thinking

10:58 through it. I'll give you a good

10:59 example, right? How many you'll see a

11:02 lot of and there's so many good tools

11:04 out there. My buddies over at Gong have

11:05 a great tool and they'll be like, "Well,

11:07 Gong's great because you put the call in

11:08 and it tells you all these things." I'm

11:10 like, "Okay, but did I internalize

11:12 that?" Like, how do I as the manager

11:15 help the rep internalize that issue and

11:18 really make it their own versus reading

11:20 what some AI said I didn't do well,

11:22 >> right?

11:23 >> Um, and again, that's nothing against

11:25 the tool. It's kind of your question.

11:26 And how do we as leaders

11:29 develop young people or salespeople in

11:32 these areas around tough things like

11:34 prospecting? It's by helping them think,

11:37 not just I'm going to plug it into AI

11:40 and it's going to tell me what to do.

11:42 >> Yeah. And if you plug it into AI and it

11:44 tells what to do, you're going to sound

11:45 like everybody else and start losing

11:47 that human aspect of it. I mean, I think

11:50 it's almost one of those things where it

11:52 it's shifted the market in a way that's

11:54 really interesting and there's a lot of

11:56 fun around like, hey, what's capable of

11:58 doing and then it's also just uh

12:01 completely uh created a ton of value in

12:03 the human aspect and human relationships

12:06 that I think is it's starting to boil

12:08 out. The more people I talk to, the more

12:09 people are like, you know, I don't want

12:11 the AI, I want this, I want the human

12:13 interaction, I'll take the mistakes,

12:14 I'll take that. Part of it is like at

12:16 the end of the day like if AI is in your

12:19 sales process um and it becomes more and

12:22 more a part of it you people are going

12:24 to start interpreting that as okay cool

12:26 and then when something breaks I'm going

12:27 to get an AI bot not a person and I'm

12:29 going to get the script and not a person

12:31 because you've shown me during the sales

12:34 process who you guys are which is not a

12:36 human element that I need when things

12:38 are truly truly bad bad um not to say

12:41 that AI doesn't shouldn't be involved

12:43 >> it just should be involved in the right

12:44 places.

12:46 >> Amen.

12:47 I think it's kind of like um you know

12:49 for us old school sales people it's kind

12:51 of brings a tear to my eye because look

12:53 in 1990 when I started as a salesperson

12:55 I had a a handwritten note with check

12:57 marks you know I'm like one I made a

12:59 call two here's my rolodex you know I

13:01 rolled it up and um it's interesting

13:04 though because the logic that happened

13:07 then is the same logic as today

13:10 consistency work on your approach target

13:13 your message you know follow through We

13:16 didn't have the same tools, but the

13:18 fundamental issue hasn't changed. What I

13:20 like about what's

13:22 >> what I like about what you just said is

13:24 I feel like

13:26 >> the the last x number of years of

13:29 selling has become so hyperfocused on

13:32 automation

13:33 >> that in a lot of ways we're losing the

13:36 essence of onetoone communication. So I

13:40 have a lot of clients they're like he's

13:42 like I'm just driving out in my

13:44 territory and knocking on doors. I'm

13:46 like, "Oh, I better start crying." You

13:47 know, I'm so happy. You know, and part

13:49 of that is the postcoid hangover when

13:52 everything went into the COVID world,

13:53 everything became non non-human

13:55 interaction. But I think now we're

13:57 starting to swing back hopefully towards

13:59 middle ground, which is human

14:00 interaction, human relationships,

14:02 conversation, and then AI as a

14:04 productivity tool on the back end to

14:06 kind of help me maybe expedite my

14:08 coaching a little bit, speed up the way

14:10 I handle some things. But I'm going to

14:12 differentiate myself again by being a

14:14 good human person.

14:17 >> And it comes down to to your earlier

14:19 point which is the thinking part. How

14:21 does that individual rep think? Um and

14:24 so when you were talking about that, you

14:25 know, how do I coach them up to to

14:27 internalize the problem to think about

14:28 it? What are some of the things that you

14:29 see that are most common commonly needed

14:32 coaching points uh for like bringing the

14:35 reps to the next level to really start

14:37 becoming more than somebody who just

14:39 kind of follows the script which is fine

14:40 to start at some you know you got to get

14:42 the rep movement but

14:44 >> what does that next step look like most

14:46 often

14:46 >> the the thing that I really I I um and

14:49 I'll give you a quick story on that when

14:51 I started um I was a finance major and

14:52 accounting major in college I went to

14:54 Clemson and I was like I'm going to go

14:55 be a finance guy you know I had

14:57 internships in finance And right before

15:00 um I took my first job, my mentor at the

15:03 time, he said, you know, and he said,

15:06 "You ought to try sales." And I always

15:08 laugh because people think you can try

15:11 sales. No one says you should try being

15:14 a doctor, you know, or you should try

15:16 being a a lawyer. It's like for some

15:20 reason people believe that sales is

15:22 something you can try. And I've been an

15:23 advocate to say we need to stop saying

15:25 that because

15:26 >> like you've learned.

15:28 >> Yeah.

15:28 >> A sales professional is like an

15:30 accounting like a CPA. Every year

15:32 there's new rules. Every year there's

15:34 new techniques. If you were a CPA and

15:37 you were using the tax code from six

15:39 years ago, you'd never be fired. Well,

15:41 if you're a salesperson and you're using

15:42 techniques from six years ago, you'd be

15:44 fired. So, I do like to think. But so so

15:48 when I got into this whole sales I I've

15:51 I've I've always tried to realize that

15:54 that it is a um it is a profession.

15:58 >> Um it is is it is something to

16:00 specifically work on. So you know when I

16:03 look at today and I look at some of

16:05 these things that I try to work on sales

16:08 people we talked about thinking the way

16:10 I like to do it is that basic curiosity

16:14 of a salesperson the ability to

16:18 be in a situation and have a curiosity

16:20 is really important and so people say

16:22 well like you said how do you train to

16:24 that

16:25 >> and I've said one of the things that

16:27 organizations do is they teach so much

16:30 what to say and not enough what to ask

16:33 >> as if saying the perfect thing is being

16:37 a great salesperson. I say the opposite.

16:39 Actually asking the great question

16:42 >> is what makes a salesperson great. And

16:44 so um what happens is so what I try to

16:48 do is I try to help salespeople ask good

16:51 questions.

16:52 >> How that manifests itself career-wise is

16:55 and this is really an important person

16:56 for somebody that has aspirational

16:59 goals, right? is the higher up the

17:03 higher up you go in an organization the

17:06 more business acumen is important

17:09 >> you know if you just all you care about

17:10 is selling deals and all I want to do is

17:12 sell

17:13 >> you don't necessarily develop a clear

17:16 understanding of how does my product or

17:20 service impact a business all you care

17:23 about is did they buy it or not and I

17:26 think that's a very limiting

17:28 factor you might win deals you You might

17:31 just pump them through and that's fine.

17:33 But if you have aspirations career-wise,

17:35 you have to understand business acumen.

17:37 So, a kind of nice thing is is again I

17:40 started in payroll sales at Seridian,

17:42 the payroll company. And so, I went into

17:44 all these different companies from all

17:46 these different types of businesses and

17:48 I'm like, "Oh, wow. That's interesting.

17:50 How does your business make money? How

17:52 does a meat products byproducts company

17:54 make money?" You know, how does a

17:56 trading cards company make money? So, I

17:58 think the what I what I the the double

18:01 win for the curious salesperson is when

18:04 they're asking questions and they

18:05 understand how does my business how does

18:07 my product and service impact your

18:08 business, they're also developing acumen

18:11 that they're going to use later in a

18:12 career if they want to get into

18:13 executive roles or a CRO or even a CEO

18:17 for all that matters. So, I think that's

18:19 the I know that was a little bit of a

18:20 long answer to the question of I try to

18:23 make sure the best salespeople

18:26 understand the business impact of what

18:29 they're doing, not just what are its

18:31 features and benefits and how much does

18:33 it cost.

18:34 >> Yeah,

18:35 >> that skill transfers all the way in your

18:38 career.

18:38 >> Yeah. What what's uh what's interesting

18:40 is as you're talking through that um I

18:42 was having flashbacks to when I was

18:43 getting my MBA and they made us do these

18:46 Harvard case law or not case law Harvard

18:48 business review like things and we we

18:50 read them all and we diagnose the

18:52 problem and we'd think about it

18:53 >> and you know so on and so forth and then

18:55 like

18:56 >> you know I took like an entrepreneur

18:57 course and all this kind of stuff and

18:59 we're we're dancing around the entire

19:01 time what what actual sales is and the

19:04 big knock that I always have is like

19:07 >> they don't teach the sales part though,

19:09 which is going in and having authentic

19:11 conversations and being genuinely

19:14 curious. And I feel like you could

19:16 easily substitute sitting down and being

19:18 like, "Okay, here's the piece of paper,

19:20 read it, diagnose the problems, offer a

19:22 solution in an academic sit down at your

19:25 desk way." It's like, why don't you just

19:27 send them to businesses that have agreed

19:29 to work with you and then you have to do

19:32 the sales process, learn it that way,

19:35 come back, report on it, look, make it a

19:37 salesunnel versus

19:39 a paper, like actually have a salesunnel

19:42 instead of a paper. I think the amount

19:44 of like uh retention and application and

19:47 understanding of how business actually

19:48 works would go through the roof in

19:50 comparison to just sitting down and

19:52 looking at things like in a dry dull

19:55 academic way where it's like you know

19:57 starting a business has taught me more

19:59 than an NBA program ever could.

20:01 >> Absolutely.

20:02 >> Why not just have them people actually

20:04 actively selling and doing this B2B

20:06 sales in specific to to really learn how

20:08 you know businesses work and how people

20:11 like considered how things go? I mean,

20:13 you know, there's one thing to be like,

20:14 "Hey, we fit this problem." The other

20:15 thing is to be like, "That's not their

20:16 biggest problem, so they don't have

20:17 attention for you."

20:18 >> That's right. That's right.

20:20 >> So, it's this whole other mindset of

20:21 like, you know, this curiosity shift and

20:24 then like actually

20:26 >> wanting to dig in and understand how

20:28 you're helping their business versus can

20:29 I get the credit card swiped.

20:31 >> Yeah. And that's and and so that goes

20:32 back to what we started with.

20:34 >> Yeah. If if if if people people good

20:39 sales people do what you just said, not

20:42 there to get the credit card swiped, you

20:45 know, that is the transaction portion of

20:47 it. If that's what you're in it for, you

20:50 can you can be successful that way.

20:52 Don't get me wrong, but if that's what

20:54 your motivation is, and I'll always

20:56 people say, I'm money motivated, so I

20:57 got into sales. I'm like, that's the

20:58 worst reason, you know, because then

21:01 you're going to make decisions at times

21:03 that are beneficial to you and not to

21:05 the client. And that might work in the

21:07 short run, you know, trust me, that can

21:09 always work. Pushing, that's that's how

21:10 sales people get a bad reputation. But

21:12 if you get into it and say, you know, I

21:15 believe very strongly in the um the

21:19 importance of solving issues. I'm a

21:21 problem-solving type person.

21:24 >> This is a great place to be. And I think

21:26 a lot of times people think, "Oh, you

21:28 should hire for somebody that's affable

21:29 and they have a great personality and

21:31 they're fun to be around,

21:32 >> but some of the best salespeople I've

21:34 ever managed are stoic.

21:38 >> They're very methodical,

21:40 but they're very credible and they're

21:42 very client focused and they're very

21:44 solutionoriented."

21:45 And um in today's day and age, you know,

21:48 I think with so much noise and scrutiny,

21:50 people want to interact with trustworthy

21:52 people, humans that work for them, that

21:55 understand them, um that's really a

21:57 differentiation. So, you know, if you're

21:59 out there thinking about sales or you're

22:01 just getting started and you're like,

22:02 I'm not funny enough or I'm not I'm I'm

22:04 nervous. Like, don't worry about it.

22:06 Don't worry about it. It takes all

22:08 >> We're a we're a we're a a welcoming

22:11 community in sales, you know. There's uh

22:15 we have room for everybody.

22:17 >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think uh you know an

22:20 interesting part of all this is like you

22:22 can you can go for the transactional but

22:24 that's always going to be a race to the

22:25 bottom in terms of pricing and it's

22:27 >> you know Walmart, Amazon, you know these

22:29 people have already cornered the market

22:31 on the race to the bottom. Like you're

22:32 not going to beat them to the race to

22:33 the bottom. You sure can break out with

22:35 like a premium offering that is but you

22:38 know what comes with that is the

22:39 relationship that you're talking about

22:41 the I'm doing what's in their best

22:43 interest not in my best interest per se

22:46 and then you know it takes longer and

22:48 it's a little bit more you know complex

22:50 to navigate but then you end up being

22:51 able to offer a higher premium product

22:53 because you're also you know selling the

22:56 relationship or establishing and

22:58 building and you know creating trust

23:00 with the two organizations. So when

23:04 please no go. I just want to add one

23:05 more point to the question you asked

23:07 before which I thought was really good

23:08 just about like you know what do you

23:09 what is the differentiation or what do

23:11 you try to coach and teach sales people

23:13 and I'll tell you one thing that I found

23:15 in the top performers that I've I've um

23:18 managed over the years is they have an

23:20 un

23:22 unwavering

23:24 sense of personal accountability

23:26 >> and um you know I always say there's a

23:29 difference the thin line between reasons

23:31 and excuses you know very very rarely is

23:34 something a compelling reason, you know,

23:36 like it's an actual reason you could not

23:38 win a deal.

23:39 >> Most of the time there's some version of

23:41 excuse. So someone will say something

23:42 like, well, our price was our price was

23:45 higher.

23:46 >> Yeah.

23:46 >> So what could I do? Right? That's an

23:48 example of an excuse, not a reason,

23:51 right? Um and so if it's like, hey, we

23:53 can't conduct business in a country, and

23:55 they conduct business in that country,

23:57 that's a reason. Like there's nothing

23:58 you could do about it. But more often

24:00 than not, it's excuses. And so I found

24:03 when I coach sales people, I'm always

24:05 like, you want to assume that in almost

24:08 every deal that you did not win, it was

24:11 your fault.

24:12 >> And fault isn't necessarily like I'm

24:14 going to be miserable about it or I hate

24:16 myself or I stink, but fault is this

24:18 belief that had I made different choices

24:21 along the way and done things

24:23 differently, I had complete control of

24:25 the outcome. Sales is easy to blame

24:27 other people. I can't tell you how many

24:29 I'll call them, you know, tier two

24:31 salespeople or tier three that it was

24:33 always somebody else's fault. The

24:35 competitor had a feature, the client was

24:37 stupid, my price was too high, right?

24:40 That's a loser mindset. And um so I

24:43 always try to make sure whenever we're

24:44 doing deal reviews or anything, are we

24:48 sure that we are doing everything within

24:51 our ability to influence that? And um

24:54 and if it doesn't go our way, we want to

24:56 understand what is it that we could have

24:57 done differently. So I do think that's

24:58 just a winner mindset. Whether you're a

25:00 BDR, an SDR, an AE, an AM, a CRO, it

25:04 doesn't matter any anywhere in that is

25:06 just this belief that I control my

25:08 destiny in a sales process.

25:11 >> Yeah. And this is like a perfect segue

25:13 into where I was going to ask, which is,

25:15 you know, as you're getting the shift

25:17 from am I saying the right things to am

25:18 I asking the right things? It sounds

25:20 like, you know, during deal reviews,

25:22 what are the reasons versus what are the

25:24 excuses? You know, probably do they

25:26 understand what the business is and what

25:28 they're truly solving? Like, how are you

25:30 making sure that that transitions

25:32 happening? Because like, sure, they

25:33 could also just read the question and

25:35 then now you got to figure out what how

25:37 they internalized it and how do I crack

25:40 their brain open and see how did they

25:41 internalize it?

25:43 >> Yeah. And I think I think it's kind of

25:44 one of the um honestly one of the

25:47 shortcomings that I think of of sales

25:50 leaders in today's day and age.

25:52 >> Um and it's the businesses, you know,

25:55 contributor to it is

25:57 >> we're so focused on results

26:00 >> and did you win it and did you not and

26:02 what was your win rate and what are the

26:04 statistics and the KPIs and how many

26:06 dials you make and what's your quota.

26:08 like we're so driven by that performance

26:12 that coaching, inspection,

26:16 visibil that that side of it gets pushed

26:19 aside. It's like the last thing on the

26:21 list. So honestly, what's the quote? You

26:24 know, 90% is showing up. Mhm.

26:27 >> The biggest issue is just having sales

26:31 managers, leaders, coaches, train,

26:33 whatever it is, take the time and and

26:37 enforce the discipline of practice.

26:39 >> Yeah.

26:40 >> Um it's so so hard today because there's

26:44 so many pressures to produce

26:46 >> that all we care about is did you win

26:48 this deal or not and why and how much is

26:50 your performance? And unfortunately

26:54 the exercise the the motion of coaching

26:57 training has gone by the wayside. Before

26:59 this Zoom call I had I have one of my

27:01 clients we do three uh one a week 30

27:05 minute they they put in a scenario we

27:07 all respond and then we talk through it

27:09 as a group. It's a quick hit but it's

27:11 just practicing the drills. Enforcing

27:14 that discipline is where I think a lot

27:16 of companies and a lot of sales leaders

27:18 fall short. Um, so I don't want to

27:20 There's a million different ways to do

27:22 it. There's a lot of different ways to

27:23 do it, a lot of tools to do it. But

27:25 >> the bigger problem is just doing it.

27:27 Having the mindset as a leader and as a

27:29 team, we're going to work on basic

27:32 fundamental skills.

27:34 >> Um, and and and we're not going to put

27:37 it aside. It's not going to be like the

27:39 last thing on the last day if we get to

27:41 it.

27:41 >> Yeah. So, I mean, it's almost like this

27:44 is not a complex, you know, thing. It is

27:47 not complex to like figure out what's

27:49 going on. Engage in the regular practice

27:51 of coaching and you know interacting

27:53 around those business problems and it'll

27:54 start coming to the top and flushing

27:56 everything out.

27:57 >> It does. I mean and and listen I don't

27:59 want to prescribe one style. Somebody

28:01 I'm I'm a I'm a I grew up in New Jersey.

28:03 I'm very you know like this you know I'm

28:05 excitable. Um but that's not the only

28:08 way to do it. I mean and and I realize

28:10 as a leader sometimes people don't like

28:11 that. you know, I have salespeople that

28:13 are more reserved, you know, and they

28:15 want a a slower, more methodical

28:17 approach. Um, and so just working

28:19 individually, and that's why I don't

28:21 like to say there's only one way to do

28:24 it. There are a lot of different ways to

28:25 do it. There's a lot of different ways

28:26 to coach, and there's a lot of different

28:28 personalities that you're dealing with,

28:30 but um, there are some fundamental

28:33 skills. Like I said, I don't care where

28:34 you are. I don't care whether you're

28:36 funny or loud or quiet. If you don't

28:37 have curiosity, you're probably not

28:40 going to be successful in sales. in in

28:42 any role. Um just because this sincere

28:45 desire to learn about others and help

28:48 them be successful is a core tenant of

28:51 long-term sales success.

28:53 >> Yeah. Um so if I'm working in an

28:56 organization uh and I'm saying, "Okay,

28:59 this is great. I do feel like we're

29:00 overrun by KPIs. We're not we're not

29:03 focused on this other stuff." if I'm an

29:05 AE, if I'm a frontline leader, and if

29:08 I'm, you know, a higher up leader, you

29:10 know, what would be your advice to each

29:11 of those levels on how do I start that

29:13 cultural shift to uh to looking at the

29:17 KPIs and understanding them and having

29:19 them inform but not having them dominate

29:21 and, you know, rule the day and have

29:24 like box everything else out. Yeah, it's

29:27 it's super interesting and I could spend

29:28 30 minutes answering that one question,

29:30 but um what's interesting because um the

29:33 way the term I the term I like to use is

29:35 I think it's absolutely critical in the

29:37 day-to-day um function of a business to

29:40 have some KPIs. The term I like to use

29:42 is conversational KPIs.

29:44 >> So conversational KPI is just simply you

29:47 and I are walking, we're talking and

29:49 like, hey, how's business? You know,

29:51 what the numbers look like? And I I have

29:53 two or three things that I tell you that

29:55 give you an essence of how the business

29:57 is performing. Like that's absolutely

29:59 important. Even if it's some and

30:00 different organizations, different

30:02 places, it might simply be, "Hey man,

30:03 it's been a great week. I set eight new

30:04 meetings." Great. That's a

30:06 conversational KPI, right? I didn't need

30:08 to see some gigantic report.

30:11 >> Um so I because I do think there are

30:13 some metrics that we should know. You

30:15 know, hey, my pipeline the next 90 days

30:17 looks good. It's about three times.

30:19 We're good shape. Great. Thanks. Good to

30:21 know. go about my day, right? So, I'm

30:24 not an anti-KPI person, but as I've

30:27 learned over my career, especially in

30:28 working with private equity and others,

30:30 you can make the numbers tell any story

30:32 you want.

30:33 >> And so,

30:35 sometimes that's where we get hung up is

30:37 in a very KPI oriented. So, again,

30:40 summary on the KPI side is two to four

30:44 conversational KPIs. And again, if I'm

30:46 talking to my boss, I'm managing up, I

30:49 tell my boss, here's this number. If I'm

30:51 managing across, I'm telling our

30:53 implementation team, here's that number.

30:55 If I'm talking to my reps, I'm managing

30:56 down. I'm talking to them in a certain

30:58 way. So, this management, managing up,

31:01 down, and across is another philosophy I

31:03 always said. In every role you're in,

31:04 you've got a boss, you've got peers, and

31:06 you've got people that you know, you or

31:08 down, and I don't mean look down on, you

31:10 know what I mean? Like organizationally,

31:11 that's the way it works. And so,

31:13 >> each of those titles you mentioned has a

31:15 different responsibility and a different

31:17 constituency. And from that they develop

31:20 their conversations around it.

31:22 >> Um and so I think the KPI piece is

31:25 critical on the on the let's call that

31:27 the quantitative side.

31:29 >> Yeah.

31:30 >> You know on the qualitative side what I

31:32 find is that you want to try to do

31:36 things what is the you want to

31:40 you want to try to do things in a

31:43 collaborative way and and and also in a

31:47 personalized way. And what I mean by

31:48 that is I know we all in the world

31:51 everybody needs to be treated the same.

31:52 We should treat everybody the same. And

31:54 I'm like, well, we should treat

31:55 everybody with respect, but when it

31:57 comes to coaching and development,

31:59 everybody shouldn't be taught the same

32:01 because everybody has their own unique

32:03 area. Somebody's really good at

32:05 discovery, but they're not good at at

32:07 closing or someone's really good at

32:09 technical and they're not good at this.

32:10 So I do think one exercise is paying

32:14 very individualized attention to what

32:17 each individual person needs whether

32:19 that's through an assessment or whatever

32:21 it is and then getting together and

32:23 making sure that those your message your

32:26 coaching your engagement with them meet

32:28 you know what's the quote meets them

32:29 where they are

32:30 >> in that regard. I think that's really

32:32 the essence of it. So you've got a

32:34 quantitative side which are

32:36 conversational KPIs depending on who

32:38 you're talking to and then the

32:40 qualitative pieces. Am I working with

32:42 each individual where they are on things

32:44 that I know are most impactful to them?

32:46 >> Yeah. Yeah. I like the idea of

32:49 simplifying the quantitative to make

32:52 space for the qualitative.

32:53 >> Absolutely. Then yeah within that so

32:56 that feel like that's got to be if you

32:58 are overrun by qualit or sorry

32:59 quantitative uh the first step is start

33:03 making it manageable

33:05 >> so you can create space

33:07 >> how do I convince somebody else that

33:09 that's worth doing like how do I how do

33:11 I go hey this we are overrun by numbers

33:13 and somebody goes I love my numbers I

33:15 don't care what you have to say

33:16 >> well I think the question is so I always

33:18 like to ask based on the numbers the the

33:20 simple ask is based on the numbers that

33:22 I provide to you what would what would

33:24 cause us to change the direction of of

33:26 our business if I told you what what

33:28 would cause you to change if you said

33:30 well we're we're ex so I have a I'll

33:33 give you a good example so I have a

33:35 client that is in the professional

33:37 services business right so they have

33:39 billable workers that are an allocation

33:42 of billable workers that they want to

33:45 plan the time out they want 80 to 85%

33:47 utilization rate of their workers okay

33:49 so if I'm the business it is reasonable

33:52 for me as a salesperson

33:54 I I need to provide them a piece of data

33:58 that tells them what is their future

34:00 utilization going to look like. Do I

34:02 need to hire more? Do I need to start

34:04 thinking about cutting back hours? That

34:06 is a very useful use case for data.

34:09 >> Yeah.

34:09 >> Right. Um and so I always like to ask,

34:13 what are the pieces of data that I can

34:14 provide to you that will cause you to

34:17 make a decision about the business?

34:19 >> Yeah. Hey, our our our quota, our

34:21 pipeline is terrible. It's really low.

34:24 We should invest in that area. Or yikes,

34:27 90 days from now, I'm looking at cash

34:30 flow negative business. Like, I need to

34:32 know that. So, I always like to push

34:35 back and say, listen, among all the

34:36 pieces of data we look at, which ones do

34:39 you look at to make decisions around?

34:40 And I'll make sure that those are

34:42 excellent.

34:43 >> Yeah.

34:43 >> Um, that's the best way to push back

34:45 because it look that is true. Like I

34:48 don't know what do you want me to do

34:49 with the data.

34:51 >> Yeah.

34:51 >> I don't know. I just want to know. It's

34:53 like well okay. You know if it makes you

34:56 happy and you're the boss, well you're

34:57 the boss. You know it's your name at the

34:59 bottom of the paycheck. So I'll do it.

35:01 But I would prefer to provide data that

35:05 in a timely manner that allows them to

35:08 make informed decisions.

35:10 >> Yeah.

35:10 >> That's that's the best push back. And

35:12 again that goes back to the whole

35:13 business acumen comment.

35:15 Do you understand what this data is for?

35:17 >> Yeah. It's almost it's almost like

35:19 you're suggesting that we should apply

35:20 the sales process to the change

35:22 management process.

35:23 >> We're all sales we're all sales.

35:25 >> We're all sales people.

35:27 >> It's almost like we should all read the

35:28 book even if you're not in that room

35:30 because like you know people are people

35:32 are project managers that have ideas

35:34 that they want to have rolled out to the

35:35 rest of their you know their unit.

35:38 >> Go read the book. figure out how to

35:40 then, you know, do the sales process to

35:42 get up, down, and uh center on board and

35:45 moving forward by actually applying

35:47 curiosity and, you know, tying your idea

35:49 to the, you know, biggest problem and

35:52 being able to like move things forward.

35:54 >> Yeah. And and and the and the reason and

35:56 we can, you know, the reason why I wrote

35:57 and again, I'm not trying to promote the

35:59 book. I'm just giving you the context of

36:00 it is that the the reason why is that

36:03 sales great salespeople have five

36:05 fundamental skills. They understand

36:06 themselves. They know what they're in.

36:08 They know their product. They know their

36:09 service. They sincerely care about

36:11 others, right? I ask you I I care and I

36:14 ask you good questions. I also um I I I

36:17 understand outcome so I don't waste your

36:19 time. Like, hey, here's what we're here

36:20 for. Here's what you're trying to

36:21 accomplish. Here's what I'm trying to

36:22 accomplish. Then they're then they um

36:25 negotiate, right? Because when people

36:26 don't agree, sometimes people think of

36:28 negotiation as car, but I always say,

36:31 I'm married. My wife's family lives in

36:34 the Carolinas and mine lives in Florida.

36:36 So we negotiate where are we going you

36:38 know that's a negotiation right so

36:40 that's a skill and then the last one is

36:42 closing and as a salesperson you know

36:45 until the deal is closed it hasn't

36:47 happened so we might say um hey uh would

36:51 you donate to my kids baseball team oh

36:53 sure and then they don't well you didn't

36:56 close the deal right so these

36:58 fundamental good skills are necessary

37:00 everywhere and so um I try to teach that

37:03 and it's funny quick story on that. You

37:06 know, when COVID hit and right around

37:08 2020 and obviously that was at the the

37:12 summit of political negativity and what

37:16 social media unfortunately has done to

37:19 young people is when I don't agree with

37:21 something I consider that person I call

37:25 them names. I fight. But as a

37:27 salesperson,

37:28 >> if someone said your price is too high,

37:30 what? You're an idiot. You can't say

37:32 that. you know, like that would never

37:34 work, right? But that skill of how do I

37:37 handle an objection? How do I deal with

37:39 somebody that disagrees with me is a

37:41 life skill

37:42 >> and u and that was the premise of it.

37:44 So, like you said, if I'm a good project

37:45 manager and I have an idea that I think

37:47 can help my business. If I can't

37:49 communicate it, it ain't going to

37:50 happen.

37:51 >> Yep.

37:51 >> So, I am a salesperson

37:53 um in that regard. So, anyway, it's it's

37:56 we could go on and on and on, but then

37:57 anyway, that's kind of the the premise

37:59 of that topic in that regard. Well, we

38:01 are we're up. We're past time, which of

38:03 course was great. It was a great

38:05 conversation. So,

38:06 >> we're going we're going.

38:07 >> Uh, but I I do have another meeting I

38:09 gota run to, which is

38:10 >> Yeah, of course. No worries.

38:12 >> But before I let you go,

38:13 >> you know,

38:14 >> for anybody listening, you know, again,

38:16 sales is a very hard career, but I I I'm

38:18 excited to have you and in it, young

38:20 people, new people coming into our

38:21 career. It's a great way to make a

38:24 living. It's a great way to make a

38:25 contribution. And so, you know, stick

38:27 with it, man.

38:29 >> Yeah. Brett, it's almost like you also

38:31 run a podcast and you knew exactly what

38:33 I was gonna do, which was ask how do you

38:35 want to summarize this one big takeaway?

38:37 And that sounds like a perfect one.

38:39 >> Yeah. The big takeaway is this is the

38:40 greatest. It's a great profession. It is

38:42 very, very hard to do and there's more

38:45 nos than yeses.

38:47 >> Yeah.

38:47 >> Um but it's incredibly rewarding because

38:49 if you're doing it well as a

38:50 professional, you're definitely helping

38:52 people. You're solving issues. are

38:53 helping people bring things to them that

38:56 they otherwise may not do because of our

38:58 natural hesitancy as humans to just I'm

39:01 just going to do what I'm going to do,

39:03 you know? And so it's a very rewarding

39:04 career. It's it's it's great. And so

39:06 everybody who's listening on here, keep

39:08 it up, man.

39:09 >> Keep going.

39:10 >> Brett, thank you so much. I appreciate

39:11 it.

39:12 >> I appreciate it, man. Have a good one.