Shirley Hayden on ICP Strategy and Repeatable Sales Processes

Transcript

0:02 So, actually as you were saying, um

0:03 identifying the right, you know, ideal

0:05 client profile is incredibly important

0:07 for uh for a business. Can you tell me a

0:09 little bit more about that?

0:10 >> Absolutely, Austin. I think I think the

0:13 ICP is one of the biggest myths with

0:17 organizations where many of the times

0:20 they're looking at ICP for identifying

0:23 the demographics, but it does go beyond

0:26 that. It's your psychographics, the

0:29 buyer persona, all of those pieces add

0:32 to really sharpening your view on the

0:35 ideal client profile.

0:38 >> And so, is the demographic or the

0:40 firmographic, is that the starting

0:42 point, or should you approach all of

0:43 them at the same time? If I'm thinking

0:45 about that holistic picture you just

0:46 talked about, where's my entryway?

0:50 >> I think you do it all at once. It's part

0:52 of the process. It's something you work

0:54 through, and you're really adding to it.

0:56 So, I'll give you a good example, um

0:58 working with the a client recently, and

1:01 they had all the great information on

1:03 their ICP, but one of the things they

1:06 were missing was what was the trigger

1:09 that made the different people purchase.

1:12 What was the buying triggers, and what

1:15 we ended up discovering is they have

1:17 four ICPs, depending on the product. And

1:21 each of the different buyer personas had

1:24 a different trigger that motivated them

1:26 to purchase. So, depending on who

1:28 they're talking to, they need to make

1:30 sure we're understanding the triggers,

1:32 the reason behind their need for

1:34 whatever it is you're serving.

1:36 >> Yeah.

1:37 What was the process of helping uncover

1:39 those triggers that help you define

1:41 those four different personas?

1:43 >> Oh, it is a great process. That's a good

1:45 question. It It It's It's We I mean, we

1:47 even do workshops on this with Anspire

1:50 because defining your ICP is not a light

1:53 lift. You're really spending time. I

1:55 literally, in this case, interviewed all

1:58 of the executive tech staff.

2:01 Um I went back through some of their

2:03 intellectual property, reviewed all

2:05 their information. We actually looked at

2:08 every client that they were servicing,

2:11 and who the decision-maker was, what the

2:13 makeup was on each engagement, how the

2:17 leads came in. So, it is a full process.

2:20 It's not a very quick, I want to sell to

2:24 um the gas stations that have X, Y, and

2:27 Z car movement. No, it's really let's

2:31 let's peel back the onion and talk about

2:34 where successes come from, where weren't

2:36 we successful, who was the

2:38 decision-maker, what motivated them to

2:41 buy, and and how often we repeated that.

2:44 So, all of those pieces, and then doing

2:46 research, getting statistics, getting

2:48 facts and data to support your

2:50 direction.

2:51 >> Do you have uh early indicators that are

2:53 kind of showing you guys the success

2:55 from being able to do this hard work,

2:57 and then the results that you're getting

2:58 from it?

2:59 >> Absolutely. Um and it really is

3:01 utilizing that CRM system, tracking

3:04 every conversation, every interaction,

3:07 how the lead was even sourced when it

3:09 comes in, and and who is the primary

3:12 person checking in to find out about

3:15 your product or service.

3:17 >> Mhm.

3:17 >> And once you start following that

3:19 pattern, it it really helps you set the

3:22 sell yourselves up for success.

3:25 >> And so, you're you're seeing already I

3:27 mean, how long ago did you do this

3:28 process of like really digging in and

3:30 finding the right true ICP?

3:33 >> Well, it's something I do frequently. I

3:35 mean, that's part of a big part of

3:36 working with small to mid-size

3:38 businesses. The the dis- the client

3:41 journey I'm talking to you about now,

3:43 I've been working on this for the last

3:45 30 days. So, this is why I'm saying it's

3:47 not a quick process. You want to

3:49 validate. You want to make sure because

3:52 this is the foundation for how they're

3:54 going to go to market, how they're going

3:56 to utilize it for their marketing um

3:59 outreach, and and who we're going to

4:02 spend the time reaching out to on

4:04 LinkedIn and all those other sources.

4:06 So, it's a very important process in

4:08 getting feedback

4:10 um

4:11 responses from prior clients, um who do

4:14 we not want to work with? That's part of

4:16 the ICP.

4:18 Uh disqualifiers, all of those pieces

4:20 are added into it.

4:22 >> Yeah.

4:23 And so, for this particular journey, you

4:24 guys haven't quite had the opportunity

4:26 to reap the benefits as you're still

4:28 working through the process of

4:30 completing the the whole, you know,

4:33 restructure, I suppose.

4:34 >> Well, in this particular sample I just

4:37 gave you, no, not yet cuz we're just

4:39 finalizing it. But, in the past,

4:41 absolutely, what it does is it gives us

4:43 a more targeted market. And that means

4:46 when you're going out to spend money on

4:48 lead generation, we're targeting the

4:50 right leads. And that's going to improve

4:53 your ratio of the right leads in the

4:56 right one-on-one meetings. And that has

4:58 been proven out.

4:59 >> Oh, yeah, yeah. I was just curious if

5:01 you've got to the exciting part where

5:02 like everything started turning and all

5:04 of a sudden all their phone calls are

5:05 starting to work or whatever, but

5:07 >> No, no, not yet with this one. Early in

5:09 the process.

5:10 >> Yes, absolutely.

5:11 >> Okay. So, what if you're an organization

5:13 that's a little bit newer and maybe you

5:15 are lacking some of these complete data

5:17 points? How would you recommend starting

5:19 this process and maybe at least being

5:22 purposeful or deliberate with

5:24 um

5:25 trying to hi- hold on the ICP even

5:26 though you don't necessarily have maybe

5:28 enough clients at this point in time to

5:29 truly define?

5:31 >> Um it's really just documenting

5:34 everything. Documenting all your

5:36 interactions, who you're having success

5:38 even securing a meeting with. Um and my

5:41 philosophy is if if you have success,

5:44 repeat it and keep doing it. And and if

5:47 it continues to work, you have a

5:48 pattern, and that's something you want

5:49 to document. This particular person

5:52 answers every time. The CEO is the key

5:55 to this product line, or the CFO is the

5:58 key to this product line. So, you're

6:00 documenting all of the interactions.

6:02 You're actually documenting um

6:05 how they responded. Did they respond by

6:07 email? Was it LinkedIn outreach? Where's

6:09 the best way to to get them? Is it by

6:12 phone? So, it's just document

6:15 everything, continue, be consistent, uh

6:18 give yourselves a target, like I'm going

6:21 to do 20 outreaches a day, and I'm going

6:23 to record who I'm reaching out to. So,

6:26 if you're batting zero with one

6:27 particular person, change the role,

6:29 change the title, but make sure you're

6:31 understanding

6:33 why they would want to speak to you.

6:35 What What's their pain? What could you

6:37 solve?

6:38 >> So, there's a little bit of balance on

6:40 trying to do some work ahead of time,

6:42 trying to kind of guess or hypothesis,

6:44 but it sounds like

6:46 the crux of it though is you have to be

6:48 out there testing and making the calls

6:50 and sending the emails and generating

6:52 the data, and if you're not doing that,

6:54 you're never really going to get

6:54 anywhere. You can

6:56 you can play with the edges as much as

6:58 you want, you can come up with theories

6:59 and ideas, but until you actually create

7:01 some evidence, there's really it's not

7:03 going to be able to go anywhere for you.

7:05 >> Not really, and but the only way to to

7:08 validate is to get started. Know that

7:11 it's fluid, especially in the beginning,

7:13 and be willing to pivot. Um because as a

7:17 founder of any organization, they know

7:19 their product or service. Now, it's time

7:22 to identify which person in the

7:24 organization

7:26 has the urgency, the need to respond to

7:29 what it is you're offering. Validate it,

7:31 repeat it, and keep moving. If that's

7:34 not it, pivot and try the next person in

7:37 leadership, but

7:40 most founders know who they can help and

7:42 who they can serve. It's a matter of am

7:44 I speaking to the right person. So, if

7:48 if if it doesn't impact me, I may not

7:51 spend the time talking through it with

7:54 the salesperson or the the business

7:56 owner or business development person,

7:58 but if I knew that it would take my

8:01 colleague out of pain, maybe I would

8:03 say, "Well, maybe not me, but you should

8:05 talk to so-and-so." And and and move it

8:08 over, but many people won't. They'll

8:10 just That was another call that they put

8:12 aside. So, really knowing who it impacts

8:16 before you make the call is important.

8:18 >> Yeah.

8:20 Now, it seems like there's kind of two

8:21 variables and maybe I'm missing out on

8:23 some of them, but am I talking to the

8:24 right person at the right org and am I

8:28 saying the right words?

8:29 Uh and it's something It seems like you

8:32 could be talking to the right person,

8:33 but maybe you're just not using the

8:34 right messaging or, you know, maybe you

8:36 are using the right messaging, but it's

8:37 the wrong person. How are you balancing

8:40 that complexity and am I missing some

8:42 variables that should also be considered

8:43 and part of that?

8:45 >> Well, no, I mean, I think you're on

8:47 point with the two variables, but

8:48 there's another layer in there. So, for

8:51 example, there may be four people in the

8:54 organization that could use your product

8:56 or service. So, it takes time to really

8:59 make sure we've done our homework to

9:01 know, now how will this impact each of

9:04 those different roles? It may impact

9:06 them differently. The CEO might just be

9:09 concerned with efficiency.

9:11 The IT person is is concerned with

9:14 innovation. The risk management person

9:16 is concerned with compliance and and

9:19 regulatory issues. So, there's there's

9:21 an opportunity for you to do your

9:23 homework and know where your product fit

9:27 or your service fits with the different

9:30 buyers in an organization. And then, we

9:33 don't have a a standard stump speech, I

9:36 should say.

9:37 Uh that everyone doesn't get the same

9:39 information. We have to speak the

9:41 language that's important to them. And

9:44 once we start speaking their language,

9:47 we get them to open up and we're now

9:49 we're in true discovery and

9:51 understanding. So, there there's not

9:54 just one

9:55 conversation to be had. It may be

9:57 multiple.

9:58 >> Yeah.

10:00 Is this a good opportunity for anyone

10:02 and everyone to do maybe multi-threading

10:05 and saying, "Hey, we could potentially

10:06 hit all four people's pain points. Let's

10:09 talk to all four and we'll find out

10:11 because we actually talked to all of

10:12 them."

10:13 Uh

10:14 or is it one of those things where

10:15 multi-threading can be confusing if

10:17 you're reaching out to the same org with

10:18 different messages?

10:20 >> Yeah, you want to be you want to be

10:21 strategic with that approach because the

10:24 goal is is to find out who the

10:26 decision-maker is,

10:28 um number one. Um if you can get to the

10:30 decision-maker and speak about how it

10:33 impacts them and they loop in the next

10:35 person, which is a smart move, um then

10:38 that's great. But if you're calling the

10:40 organization and you're trying to talk

10:42 to four different people,

10:44 it may not work out so well. So, you

10:46 want to you want to be cautious about

10:48 that.

10:49 Um but overall, how does it impact the

10:52 organization?

10:54 You get to the person that has the

10:56 urgency. It can be minor things like

10:59 there's a a new merger and um you need

11:03 to focus in on change management. Well,

11:05 then I'm going to go to HR and have that

11:08 conversation, but they're going to move

11:10 me over to some other folks. So, just

11:13 being strategic about your research

11:15 beforehand, I think is important.

11:17 >> Yeah, that makes sense.

11:19 And I think, you know, what you point

11:20 out some of there is like somebody might

11:21 have that urgency and then they're going

11:22 to put me over somewhere else. So,

11:24 ultimately the decision-maker may not be

11:26 the person that's going to get you in

11:27 the door.

11:29 Um you got to keep track of that. How do

11:30 you how do you recommend analyzing the

11:32 differences there? Like if I'm looking

11:34 at my my CRM, like well, here's the

11:37 person who spent the money every single

11:38 time, but then I got to then also be

11:41 like, but that doesn't mean they're a

11:42 person to pick up the phone every time.

11:44 >> That No, that's true. So, I mean, one of

11:47 the first questions I ask when I'm

11:48 engaged with someone is, you know, talk

11:51 to me about the greatest business

11:53 challenge happening right now. Where

11:54 does it lie?

11:56 And now you'll you'll get it beyond that

11:58 person because if they're in a

12:00 leadership, they're going to tell you

12:01 what is happening in the corporation

12:04 that needs attention.

12:05 >> Yeah.

12:05 >> And you just explore it. You you have a

12:08 good conversation about let's talk about

12:10 what's happening. And um what have you

12:13 tried? Who's been involved in that

12:15 process? So, you start asking the

12:17 questions that will lead you to the

12:19 right contact.

12:21 >> Yeah. So, we've talked a little bit

12:23 about um you know,

12:25 the benefits of doing the work, spending

12:27 30 plus days to figure out who the ICP

12:30 is. What are some of the things that

12:31 happen if you choose to put this to the

12:33 side and maybe don't pay too much

12:35 attention to it. What's the downstream

12:37 repercussions of that?

12:38 >> Well, there's quite a few. I mean, your

12:40 win rate's going to decline.

12:43 You're going to spend more time talking

12:45 to the wrong people.

12:46 Um you're you're not going to bring the

12:48 value that you want because the people

12:50 that need to hear what you have, you're

12:53 not reaching. So, it will cost you in

12:56 the long run. You're not going to scale

12:58 nearly as quickly. So, it it is a part

13:01 of any building process. You know, um

13:04 I always say that when you start

13:06 building the infrastructure and the

13:07 playbooks, it's not the sexy part of

13:09 sales. No one wants that. I just want to

13:11 We would just want to go out and sell

13:13 and and and and gain revenue. And um

13:18 which is great, but revenue that's not

13:21 sustainable doesn't build a business.

13:24 And so, taking the time to put the

13:27 process in place, build the

13:29 infrastructure, know exactly who your

13:32 ICP is, know how to follow up, and make

13:35 sure that you continue a repeatable and

13:37 scalable process. Those are the things

13:40 that you want to do up front. It doesn't

13:43 especially in small to mid-size

13:45 businesses. That's my focus. I I'm I

13:47 assume and so I'll give you a good

13:49 example. Um

13:51 I could easily say I focus on uh small

13:54 to mid-size businesses that have 3 to 5

13:57 million plus in revenue 3 to 50 million

14:00 plus in revenue. Well, it doesn't tell

14:02 you a whole lot.

14:03 Realistically, what I do is I work with

14:06 organizations that are growing.

14:09 >> Mhm.

14:09 >> And they haven't reached the stage of

14:12 revenue yet where they're able to bring

14:14 on a VP of sales or chief revenue

14:17 officer. So, I come in and I work with

14:20 them in two different capacities. One, I

14:22 may work with them and coach that

14:24 founder to help them execute on their

14:26 greatest business challenges. But, if

14:29 they've reached the stage of revenue

14:31 where they can hire a fractional, I come

14:33 in and build that infrastructure, create

14:36 the playbook, and give them this

14:38 process, and truly do the workshops on

14:42 ICPs. And the reason that's important is

14:45 because

14:46 they will typically hire a business

14:49 development person. This is what I hear

14:51 most often is I hired a business

14:53 development person. They've been here

14:54 for a year, they haven't done anything.

14:57 There was no process. They weren't clear

14:59 on the ICP. So, they're just going out

15:02 to 3 to 5 plus million-dollar businesses

15:05 saying, "Hey, I can offer you sales

15:07 leadership." Well, that's not truly the

15:10 ICP. What I just gave you an example of

15:13 explained they're growing, they're

15:16 starting to realize that the owner and

15:18 founder level will make it a bottleneck

15:21 in the organization. They need to keep

15:24 revenue and infrastructure together as

15:27 opposed to we have great wins and then

15:30 loss. Nothing that's sustainable. So,

15:33 creating these pieces up front saves you

15:36 a lot of money on the back end. It sets

15:39 you up for success cuz you're scaling.

15:41 But, ultimately what got you to 5

15:44 million won't get you to 20. So, you

15:46 still need to pivot, reevaluate, and

15:49 bring in the next level of how do I

15:51 increase um how do I adjust my

15:54 infrastructure?

15:56 >> Yeah, so I mean, I think obviously if

15:58 anyone's listening and they're saying,

16:00 "Oh, we don't have a process." You know,

16:02 step one. Um but, if somebody is trying

16:05 to diagnose whether or not their

16:06 processes doing a good enough job, I

16:09 mean, how can they maybe kick the tires

16:11 on that and realize I got to call

16:13 Shirley right now because uh we we have

16:15 a process that's not good enough. And I

16:17 look I figured that out because X, Y, Z

16:20 are the symptoms that I'm looking at for

16:23 for that.

16:24 >> I I love that question because most

16:27 businesses don't have a documented

16:31 process.

16:31 >> Uh too soon.

16:32 >> Everyone says, "I have a process. Yeah,

16:35 I know what we're doing." But, if you

16:37 ask three people in the same

16:38 organization the process, they're going

16:40 to give you a different version.

16:42 >> Mhm.

16:42 >> The benefit of documenting that is

16:45 you've documented what wins. You're

16:47 documenting what is scalable and

16:50 repeatable. And you're not taking the

16:53 superstar's version of it and or the

16:56 person that's least effective and making

16:59 the the ruling. You're basically

17:01 building out what works, what's

17:03 consistent, and what's scalable and

17:05 repeatable. Um a good example, I worked

17:08 with an organization one time

17:10 and they had all regional sales people.

17:14 All three were selling like

17:15 entrepreneurs of their own business. And

17:19 um there was one superstar winning,

17:21 others doing okay, but when they started

17:23 to hire folks,

17:25 no one was ramping up at the same rate.

17:28 There was because there was no written

17:31 process. There were verbal processes,

17:33 this is what I do, this is how I go in,

17:35 this is who I talk to, this is who I'm

17:37 most familiar with. But that doesn't

17:39 build a repeatable and scalable

17:41 business. And once you document that

17:44 process and really give step-by-step

17:47 when you onboard someone new, they know

17:51 the pathway to success. It's a

17:53 blueprint. So, when your question was,

17:56 how do they validate? Because now you're

17:58 looking at where is it falling apart? Is

18:01 it every time this person sends a

18:02 proposal? Let's take a look at what's

18:04 happening in the proposal. Do they make

18:07 it past the discovery call? So, when you

18:09 have the process, you can start checking

18:12 at where are we falling off, which

18:15 requires them to log in activity in the

18:17 CRM system, which is also part of the

18:20 process that most people have but don't

18:24 utilize as a true sales management tool.

18:29 >> So, really it becomes

18:31 your diagnosis isn't necessarily going

18:33 to be the same for each person cuz it's

18:34 going to look at the entire process.

18:36 First First get the process and then

18:38 look at each step of the way and decide

18:40 where the biggest impact of conversion

18:42 could be.

18:43 And that's how you can then start

18:45 looking at that

18:46 in your own nuanced business cuz we all

18:49 have the differences, we all have our

18:50 different approaches, different teams.

18:53 Being able to document it gives us the

18:54 metrics to then pinpoint where our

18:56 greatest impact could be. Is that

18:58 roughly it?

18:59 >> Absolutely. Yeah.

19:00 >> Yeah.

19:01 >> You just described the process. I love

19:03 it.

19:04 >> I I worked in operations for a while and

19:08 I came into a situation where there was

19:10 no process and that would literally be

19:12 asking somebody, you know, why do I do

19:14 this thing? And they're like, "Oh, I

19:16 don't know. I just know I copied this

19:18 information and I put it here." And I'm

19:19 like, "What do you mean you don't know?"

19:21 And they're like, "I don't know what

19:22 that information means. I don't know

19:24 what the implications are." Um and it

19:27 was very exciting to start documenting

19:29 as a team. And we were able to create

19:32 repeatable, sustainable, uh

19:34 you know, workflows. Now, in this

19:36 situation, we were messing up less and

19:37 we're getting things done more

19:38 efficiently. Uh from a purely operations

19:41 perspective, but it sounds like it's the

19:44 same benefit, but for a sales process.

19:46 And you're going to run it the same way.

19:49 >> Absolutely. And I love that because

19:51 every department should have a written,

19:53 documented process. I I have a a a law

19:56 firm right now.

19:58 They're not sales people. However, the

20:01 staff was operating in silos. And so,

20:04 what we're doing is operational

20:06 excellence, where everyone is following

20:08 a process, and we're aligning with with

20:10 their roles and responsibilities. So,

20:12 your operations example is is great

20:15 because

20:17 if you were to leave there, you left

20:19 them in better situation because now the

20:22 next person that comes in, they have a

20:23 documented process. They know why. They

20:25 have the answers to all those questions,

20:28 and they can improve upon it as the

20:30 organization grows, or they can continue

20:32 because it's doing exactly what it

20:34 needs.

20:36 So, that's a that's a great thing.

20:37 >> Yeah.

20:39 Yeah, so I guess, you know,

20:40 from a very high level, if you just are

20:42 looking around at your sales team, you

20:44 go, "We're stagnant." However However

20:47 that looks exactly for your team is

20:49 going to be different, but if you feel

20:51 stagnation, it's probably because

20:53 something is missing. You don't have the

20:55 repeatable process.

20:57 Or you do have the process documented,

20:59 but it's not doesn't give you the

21:00 scalable approach to be able to do it.

21:03 And that'll That'll be step one is like,

21:05 do we feel like we're growing at the

21:07 pace we want to? If the answer is no,

21:10 time to call Shirley.

21:12 >> Yes. Call Call let's first do an

21:15 assessment, do a discovery because

21:17 realistically, the first person that

21:20 gets the blame is the salesperson.

21:22 >> Mhm.

21:23 >> But what I tell business owners is,

21:26 please don't hire a salesperson or a

21:29 business development person if you

21:31 haven't validated the KPIs that you're

21:33 going to measure them with. If you don't

21:35 have a process in place for you to hold

21:38 them accountable and measure them. We

21:41 can't manage what we can't measure. So,

21:44 you you don't want to send someone out

21:47 and say, well, go make calls, go to this

21:49 territory and grow it. You need to be

21:52 able to measure it. You also need to

21:54 have cadence of meetings and

21:56 accountability. How's it things going?

21:58 You know, are we finding the close rate

22:00 is happening? I mean, you have one

22:02 person closing 80% of the time and

22:05 another 40%. Where's the breakdown?

22:08 >> Mhm.

22:09 >> What are they doing? That can help

22:10 document the process.

22:12 >> Yeah.

22:13 Well, how would you recommend for

22:15 somebody who's trying to deal with maybe

22:17 a team that's used to the undocumented

22:19 lack of process and maybe has some

22:22 resistance cuz they kind of like doing

22:23 things their own way. They don't really

22:24 want to change cuz people generally

22:27 don't like change. Like how do you What

22:28 are your some of the recommendations you

22:29 have to to spur that?

22:32 >> Actually, involve everyone where your

22:34 organization has a voice. Change

22:37 management is the hardest part of

22:39 executing any new initiative. So, just

22:43 creating the process doesn't necessarily

22:45 mean success if no one adopts to adopts.

22:48 Okay? So, when you when you sit down and

22:52 include them in the process, there's a

22:56 pride to that. They know that their

22:58 voice is helping shape the outcome of

23:00 the organization. And yes, while it's

23:03 always great to feel like you're doing

23:05 your own thing, you are working for a

23:07 company and we want to be unified. And

23:10 so, it's it's really managing that and

23:13 having those conversations. And that is

23:15 exactly what I'm doing with the law firm

23:17 is the change management of it. I'm

23:21 executing it for them because that is an

23:24 issue of folks saying, "But no, I keep

23:27 my notes on a spreadsheet when we have a

23:30 system for that." So, just working

23:33 through that and and letting them be

23:35 involved in the process, it does

23:38 it gives a pride a sense of pride and

23:41 and it keeps everyone engaged and

23:43 they're invested in the outcome.

23:46 >> Yeah.

23:47 Would you say there's, you know,

23:49 any incentive alignment that people

23:50 should be doing that should be like

23:52 maybe spot bonuses for, you know, people

23:54 adopting the process or is this one of

23:56 those things where

23:57 if you're not doing the bringing all the

24:00 voices in well, then you're just going

24:02 to be trying to paper it over uh quite

24:04 literally.

24:06 >> Well, that's a great question. So,

24:10 it depends on where you

24:13 add bonus and things of that nature. So,

24:17 for example, we talked about one

24:19 specific client. We had talked about,

24:22 you know,

24:23 if they do their billable hours and

24:26 improve that, the firm starts seeing

24:29 better profit and margins, there may be

24:32 an opportunity for bonus down the line.

24:35 But,

24:36 as you're going through change

24:38 management, you need people who are

24:39 committed and wanting to help the

24:42 company, firm, organization succeed. And

24:46 I think that that is just our

24:48 responsibility as employees. If you're

24:51 earning a paycheck, you want to see the

24:53 success of your employer. So, I don't

24:56 think you start with bonuses to

24:59 to start the process. I think you're

25:02 incentivized once the process is up and

25:05 going and an organization is reaping the

25:08 full benefits of it.

25:09 >> It should be a natural consequence, not

25:11 an artificial

25:13 shoving of something in just to kind of

25:15 make up for the fact that you're not

25:16 maybe leading or not doing getting

25:18 everyone's voices involved and

25:20 respected.

25:21 >> Exactly. Yeah.

25:23 >> For sure. We're coming up on time. I

25:25 really appreciate you sharing some

25:26 wisdom with us.

25:27 If somebody's listening and and they can

25:30 only take one thing away or there's one

25:31 thing they got to make sure they apply

25:33 to their business, you know, what would

25:34 you recommend that be from what we

25:36 discussed today?

25:38 >> I would take the time to document your

25:40 process.

25:41 Spend the effort on your ICP.

25:44 And ask for assistance if it's not

25:47 something you do regularly. I'm happy to

25:49 help.

25:49 >> There we go.

25:51 Shirley, thank you so much. Appreciate

25:52 you coming on.

25:52 >> Thanks, Austin. I appreciate your time.