Brian McDevitt on Referrals, Introductions, and Pipeline Growth

Transcript

0:03 Okay, we've got another episode of Tailwind. Today we're joined by Brian McDev. Brian, tell us a little bit more about yourself.

0:09 Hey, thanks Austin. Appreciate you having me on here. So, uh, as Austin said, my name is Brian McDev. I've been a Sandler trainer and coach for about

0:17 eight and a half years. Prior to that, I spent 25 years as an information technology salesperson and sales leader

0:25 in terms of had a very good run. was fortunate to be work for some great companies and have a lot of sales success. I first took Sandler back in 2002.

0:35 Was doing well uh was you know top performer at that point already but felt I wanted to invest in this career called

0:42 sales and uh paid quite a bit of money out of my own pocket and within six months my sales had gone up over 50% and

0:50 never went back down. So, I've been around Sandler a long time. U but an actual trainer for the last eight and a half years.

0:58 Yeah. I know this isn't what we were going to talk about today, but uh how many people that are trainers now for Sandler first got introduced as somebody

1:06 who got trained in it because it seems like I I talked to a ton of folk and they're like it changed my career and then I decided I got to invest more in it and that brought them into being a trainer.

1:15 Yeah. I don't have any actual percentage but um it it's a good it's a high number. I mean, not everybody that does

1:22 what I do has a Sandler background, but yeah, when you sort of see the magic of what it is, how helpful it is both

1:29 personally and professionally. For me, I had a great corporate job. Um, I just really had a passion to be an entrepreneur and to help people both

1:38 personally and professionally um through all the things that we teach. And I'm very grateful to be able to uh do that and and help people get better at this wonderful thing we do called sales.

1:48 Yeah. I I mean that so I'm working on my standard training process, but the thing that always sticks with me is like the system and like the approach to stuff

1:55 and like laying out a very um straightforward templated kind of like hey here are the things that you can do.

2:00 Obviously don't just like read from a script. But um one of the things that I've been enjoying learning about more and we've been talking about is referrals um and how to like you know

2:09 structure that uh how to do the process you know what's a good way to do it so you don't have to kind of make it up on your own. um you know what tell me a

2:16 little bit more about your referral strategy how people should be thinking about thinking about process.

2:21 Yeah. Yeah. And and I will do that. Let me if I could just based on the last thing you said there Austin. Yeah.

2:26 Um I we all come at and interpret all of us trainers interpret sand a little bit differently. I think it might be helpful to set a little bit of

2:34 context for how I think about Sandler and then that dovetales nicely into referrals. So So the way I think about it is no big news flash here. sales

2:43 people aren't trusted. Therefore, prospects guard walls are up. So, what is our job as good consultative salespeople, we're going to do things

2:51 opposite of the way those traditional pushy sales people do them so that the guard walls come down. When the guard

2:58 walls come down, me and the prospect can have an open and honest conversation, which then allows us to get to efficient

3:06 yeses and nos. Nothing pushy or aggressive about it, but if it's going to be a yes, let's get there in the least amount of time. And even probably

3:13 more importantly, if it's going to be a no, let's get there quickly. And so there's a lot we unpack to accomplish that. But to me, that's my short

3:22 definition of what Sandler is and what it's all about. So with that, we can kind of move over to uh referrals. Uh I do think visual aids help in the

3:31 learning. So I'm going to go ahead and share my screen and just step through a couple of uh a couple of slides here.

3:38 Cool.

3:40 All right. And there will be a uh you can see that. Okay, this looks great.

3:45 All right. So, the first thing I want to mention here is words matter. So, when I teach this concept and when and when

3:53 you're thinking about this podcast, it is a podcast on referrals, but the word introduction has a better connotation to

4:00 it. So, if I say Austin, who can you refer me to? It's just not quite as nice of a word as who might you be comfortable making an introduction to.

4:09 So, that's kind of the first uh little tip is use the word introduction, not referral. Mhm.

4:16 So, the the next thing I'll talk about here is if you're someone who has an established business and you have a

4:24 dozen or more clients, you know, many of you out there listening to this probably have hundreds of clients. In my opinion, in my experience, referrals should be your number one source of new business.

4:36 And frankly, there shouldn't even be a close second. And I'm going to give you some stats around referrals as we kind of get toward the end of our time

4:43 together here. But one of the misnomers out there around when to ask, and I'm going to paint out some bullets here, is

4:50 that we need to sell a deal. They need to have used our product or services for any number of months and then we can ask. And that's a belief I used to have.

4:59 Reality is, and I'm pretty direct, so I hope the audience is okay with that. Um, that's just wrong. That's just, you know, what we would call here at

5:07 Sandler, head trash. The the situation is such that at which point you've gone through a selling cycle and you've

5:14 established enough trust for someone to agree to do business with you. That is a prime opportunity to ask. Products and

5:22 services are not perfect. The pinnacle of your new client's excitement may just be the time when they signed the

5:30 contract. And don't wait 6 months halfway through a deployment that may not have gone perfectly. It may not even have been your fault, but we're missing

5:37 out. So, the first thing I want to have people think about is when should we ask? Well, at the time a deal closes

5:44 one. But another one is when you get a compliment. I have trained my brain that whenever a customer says, "You're doing

5:52 a great job for me and my team." I'm going to say, "Hey, Joe, I really appreciate that." And then I'm going to go into, which I'll demonstrate here in

6:00 a moment. I'm going to go into um you know a introduction ask. So if that's a habit we can establish, it's going to pay you back uh tenfold.

6:12 I've already mentioned this when the deal is closing at our regular check-in calls.

6:18 Yes, of course. Fine to ask also after deployment.

6:23 um in the IT world, the world that I grew up in, and it's broader than that, but QBR, EBR, QBR stands for quarterly

6:30 business review. EBR stands for executive business review. So, I just want people to be thinking sort of broad about uh the way that we ask and when we

6:40 ask and what the timing is. And usually that window of opportunity to ask is much bigger than most sales people think it is.

6:48 Mhm. Okay.

6:52 So, the main reason for no referrals, no big surprise here on the first couple.

6:58 The main reason why people don't any guesses, Austin? Main reason why people they don't ask. Look at that. Bing bing bing.

7:07 The the the uh the game show with uh Wheel of No, not Wheel of What?

7:13 What's the game show called? Where uh Oh, Family Feud. There it is. Family. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

7:19 Yeah. So, there you go. Number one answer from the survey was they don't ask. Now, we'll talk a little bit about that in a minute, but this next one I

7:26 want to slow down a little bit on. One, one of my passions besides sales is psychology. Um, one of my degrees in college a million years ago was

7:35 psychology. Uh, I also got a degree in finance, which is kind of a weird combo, but it's it's served me well. Uh, so I

7:42 read psychology books for fun. Let me explain this not specific enough. So Austin, if I were to ask you, if you were a client of mine and I were ask, in

7:51 fact, I'm going to do a little mini role play here. You don't need to respond. So let's pretend you're a customer.

7:57 This is the wrong way. I find one of the best ways for people to learn things is to hear it the wrong way and then hear it the right way and they can see the contrast.

8:04 So, hey Austin, we've been working together for about six months now. I know you told me you're very happy. Um,

8:10 who can you refer me to that has a need for sales training? Okay, that's a terrible ask. Let me explain why it's a

8:19 terrible ask. It's a terrible ask, and I'll get back to this specific enough as part of my answer.

8:26 I use the word referral instead of introduction. So, that's mistake number one. Mistake number two is I said, "Who

8:34 do you know on all of God's green earth?" Right? That's a mistake, and I'll come back to why in a second. And the third mistake is, "Who do you know

8:42 that wants to give me money? That puts way too much pressure on you. And I'm going to contrast all this, but let me now dig deeper into not specific enough.

8:51 What we know from psychology and and from, you know, medical uh journals and such is the way the brain works is we

8:59 organize information into silos. What's a silo? I see you used to work over at company X. I see you're connected with

9:07 Joe Smith on LinkedIn. I see that you regularly attend the following trade show in Vegas. Now I've siloed your

9:15 brain and your brain even if you wanted to refer me to somebody in that first ask. You can't think of anybody because your brain doesn't think across the

9:24 entire quantity of people you know. So that's where we're we want to contrast that and I'll get to um how the opposite of that

9:33 here in a moment. But does that make sense? Anything I can clarify there Austin? No, I think the the obvious one is, you know, if somebody asked me, I'd be like, "Sure." And then I'd just have

9:42 no idea where to go and then I'd probably like well intention but forget about it and then not kind of go through and think it through with any sort of

9:49 like process. But then I like that you're getting more specific on the siloing and the value of that which is I think less obvious and not quite as

9:56 intuitive on why that's going to be an important change.

9:59 Exactly. Most people just don't understand that that broad ask is is bad. Right. That's the biggest mistake I made. Right. So, the the referral versus

10:08 introduction, I might be able to get away with that. Um, I would say the second biggest mistake though is saying, "Who do you know that needs sales training?" Again, it puts too much

10:16 pressure on the prospect and and the client and they're not going to give you anything. In fact, I I was training a

10:23 client yesterday on referrals and they told me they were doing it over email and I said, "How's it working for you?" And said, "I'm not getting any." And I

10:30 said, "Well, that's not surprising. Do it over the do it over the phone." and they're going to start do it over the phone or Zoom now. Yeah.

10:37 So, let me pull up a cornerstone of all things Sandler and then I'll tell you how it applies to referrals.

10:44 So, if we're struggling with frankly anything in life, but let's stay focused on referrals for a minute. So, all of a sudden, my customer Joe is not getting as many referrals as he would like to

10:53 get. So, first thing is I'm going to ask, let's go back to don't ask, right, Joe? How how many times are you asking? How are you asking? What's the behavior?

11:01 Are you doing the behavior? What's your mindset? Do you believe that you're doing a great job for your clients and that you can do a great job for your

11:10 clients friends? What's your mindset? Do you deserve referrals? Is it comfortable for you? If it's uncomfortable for you, they'll know. And you're going to make

11:18 it awkward for everyone. It's not uncomfortable for them if you do it right. And I have some data that backs that up in a moment. And then lastly,

11:25 what's my technique? How do I go about actually asking? So the the point here is whether it's referrals or anything

11:33 else. I love the BAT as what I call a diagnostic tool. If a certain thing isn't happening, I mean this could go for losing weight or exercising, right?

11:42 Am I not doing the behavior? What's my mindset? What's my technique? It's one of those three. Or if it's working well, you'll probably have all three of these cylinders uh firing.

11:53 Okay. All right. the next concept here and I only have one more concept and then we'll we'll get into some

11:59 demonstration of um contrasting a better way to do it uh here in a moment is so there's a cool

12:07 concept this is not a Sandler concept called the Pareto principle it's very broadly true it's a mathematical principle I think originally but you can

12:15 look it up your listeners can look it up but here here's how it applies to this 20% of our efforts in the world lead to

12:23 80% of our results If we're good at referrals and introductions and asking for them and getting them, that should absolutely

12:32 unequivocally be part of the minimal effort that leads to the maximal results. In fact, the my belief system

12:40 and my experience and my clients experiences the absolute number one way to build pipeline is referrals. The next one is a giant step down from that.

12:51 whatever that thing may be, networking events, trade shows, sitting on panels, you know, industry expertise, etc. And

12:58 then we work down through and probably end up somewhere around cold calls. And I'm not here to say that people shouldn't do cold calls if it's part of their prospecting motion have at it.

13:08 That's something that we teach how to do as well. But the reality is if we're good at this and if we do it, it should

13:15 be absolutely part of that 20% that leads to 80% of our results.

13:20 Okay. And then the last thing before I demonstrate the uh the the better way

13:27 the improved way to do this is so when I said before that this absolutely works and you know most people don't ask and

13:35 all these kind of things. Here's what the data shows and this to me is really important for the listeners to understand. Your clients have been

13:42 surveyed. Thousands of clients have been surveyed and they've been asked, "Are you happy with company XYZ? Are you

13:49 company with happy with company ABC?" And they say yes. They say, "If your salesperson were to ask you for a

13:57 referral, an introduction, would you give it to them?" 85% said yes. 12% of sales people ask. And it's because

14:06 either we don't know how the technique or we have a weird mindset around it and we just don't practice it. So, let me come up for air, Austin, and see what

14:15 questions or comments you might have before I do a a demonstration of sort of the the flip side of the the bad.

14:23 I I mean, this graphic right here alone shows you how much opportunity is out there. But I I'm actually excited to see what you're talking about with the uh

14:31 how I should be structuring my my ask and how to do this, right? Yeah, absolutely. So, let's so let's you and I just kind of uh step through this. Is that all right?

14:40 Sounds perfect.

14:41 All right. So, let's pretend just to give it a tiny bit of context. Let's pretend that you're a VP of sales.

14:48 You've got 20 salespeople and you and I have been working together six months. Okay. Give us a little bit of context.

14:54 Okay. So, hey Austin, good good seeing you again. I know we have a regular monthly check-in and so here we are in early uh July. I just wanted to confirm

15:02 that things are going well uh with the team. Anything I can do to uh you know do a better job for you.

15:09 Everything's fantastic right now. Really enjoying the the results at the moment.

15:12 All right. Good to hear. And if something comes up, you'll let me know. Of course. Yeah.

15:16 Okay. So, it may or may not surprise you. Uh but most of my new business comes from introductions, Austin. And if

15:23 you and I can come up with a few names of people that you know well enough, would you feel comfortable sending them an email and copying me?

15:32 Yeah, that sounds reasonable.

15:33 All right. Now, I had a role play for just a sec. Yeah.

15:36 20% of the population, the data shows, no matter how happy they are with you, is not going to make an introduction for you. And if you were to say no in that

15:45 example, I'm done and I'm going back to my normal agenda. No sweat, no stress, no awkwardness. Okay. All right. So, now

15:52 back into role play. So, hey, I I appreciate that very much. Uh, I was hoping you might say that. I hope you don't mind. I did a little bit of

15:59 research um before our call here today, and I saw on LinkedIn, it looks like you're pretty well connected to Joe and

16:08 and Sam. Of course, I would give you last names in the real world. Um, do you know either of them well enough um to make an email introduction?

16:18 Uh, yeah, I do. I know Sam pretty well.

16:20 You know Sam. All right. So, I'm just going to jot down Sam here on my note.

16:23 Um, perfect. Now, let me be clear, Austin, he may not need what we have.

16:27 Um, I'm hoping Sam's a good guy. You're a good guy. I'm a good guy. We're going to have a 15minute casual conversation.

16:34 So, what I normally suggest here, if you're open to it, is I have a very short email template that I can send to

16:41 you. You can modify as you see fit, and then you'll go ahead and fire an email off to Sam and you'll copy me. Would Would something like that be helpful?

16:49 Yeah. Saves me a little bit of time so I don't have to write up this whole email.

16:53 Exactly. That's the idea, right? You know, make it your own, but it typically saves you a little bit of time. Now, here we're coming into the holiday.

16:59 There's no real rush on my end, but just so that you and I leave our call here today with clear expectations. When do you think you'd have an opportunity to send that email to Sam and copy me?

17:10 Yeah, you know, Fourth of July weekend, we're probably going to try to head out as soon as possible. So, maybe end of next week. End of next week. No sweat. No sweat.

17:17 So, for some reason it gets buried. I haven't seen it, you know, toward end of day, next Friday. How would you like me to just, you know, ping you?

17:25 Uh, ping me on that Tuesday afterwards. That works.

17:28 Okay. Via email, text, what do you prefer? Uh, shoot me a text.

17:32 Text. All right. So, I'll put a note in my calendar to do that. I'll send you over that template and I really appreciate you uh making introduction to sale. All right. So, end role play clip.

17:42 All right. So, first question I have for you and I want you to be honest.

17:45 Yeah. How did you feel? And and feelings are important, right? We are one of the things we talk about in Sandler and we know from psychology is that people make

17:55 decisions emotionally and then they rationalize them intellectually. We are another way to think about that. I read a great quote in a psychology book. We

18:02 are emotional beings that think. We are not thinking beings with emotion. It's all about where that emphasis. So whether we're roleplaying or it's the

18:09 real life, we still have feelings. So how did you feel having that conversation with me? just felt like a professional, easy to have conversation.

18:18 Didn't feel like out of the blue or weird or anything. Yeah. Yeah. It's not pushy. It's not awkward.

18:24 And and the other thing I want to point out to the listeners is the little move I made at the end is what we call a postell. Most people don't do that. And

18:32 that's the whole bit about how much time do you need? How would you like me to follow? Because here's what happens all the time. You say you'll introduce me to

18:39 Sam, I send you the template. I didn't do the post sale. Now it's next Thursday and I haven't seen it. And I've got all kinds of thoughts going through my head.

18:47 Oh man, should I follow up? Should I not follow up? We have all this machinations going on in our head and it's no good

18:54 for anybody. Now, when it's that following Tuesday and you've told me to text you, I don't feel awkward texting you and you don't feel like I'm being

19:02 attack a pest texting you because I'm doing exactly what you asked and I'm not pressuring you. If you just said, "Give

19:10 me two weeks." No problem. And you're going to buy into the date because you provided me the date. Alternatively, here's what a lot of sales people do.

19:18 Well, I know we're coming to the holiday weekend. You think you can get that sent out by next Wednesday. You say yes, but you're not committed to the yes because

19:25 it was my date, not your date. So, that's the opposite. So, again, I use the word introduction.

19:32 I asked you I had specific names. That's best. Second best is I see you used to work over a company X, company Y. you

19:40 belong to these associations and groups and trade shows. Those are my siloed approach. So plan A, strategy A is feed

19:47 them names that are in your ideal client profile that they're connected to.

19:52 Strategy B is the silos, right? Uh that we talked about before. But again, the flip side of the wrong things, I used

20:00 introduction instead of referrals. I gave you very specific names and I made it such that who not who wants to give

20:08 me money who might be open to a 15minute casual conversation and that's the opposite of the first one I did.

20:16 Yeah.

20:17 So that's what I got. I mean that's a fast sort of you know I do this as a whole hour class with breakout and discussion and how might we modify it.

20:26 Um you know lots of flexibility within Sandler. What we always tell people is understand what we're trying to accomplish. The underpinning psychology

20:35 underneath it. The whole bit about guard walls down making people comfortable, right? Being other centered, not being self-centered and and not being pushy or

20:44 or pressuring people. But I have people practice it. I say make make it your own. Use your own words, but understand

20:51 the psychology and the intent. That's the key word there. The intent behind what we're trying to accomplish. And I've just seen people and in fact one

21:00 quick story comes to mind. One of the times I didn't mention we can ask for a referral is somebody who gives you a no.

21:06 So Austin if you were a VP of sales and you had 20 sales people and we had a good conversation but timing wasn't right. If I wasn't pushy I can get a

21:15 referral out of no. In fact I did a training yesterday with a client that had the referrals training the month before and a woman got on. I began by

21:23 saying anybody have any successes to share? This woman, Jackie, said, "I have a success." And I said, "What is it?" She said, "Well, you taught us referrals

21:30 last month, and you told us that I could ask a no for a referral. I did, and I got a referral, and I now have an

21:38 opportunity in my pipeline as a result." Now, that's right. Who who would have thought we could ask a no for a referral

21:45 and get one. So, there's another opportunity or place that we can ask that most people don't think about.

21:53 Yeah. I've had like from my own op or chances of practicing in referrals. Um first thought on this is that

22:00 uh I have done it poorly and it still worked and it was totally and like obviously I'm not saying just

22:08 ignore the technique. It's not applicable. The technique is applicable.

22:11 It makes it better. Like I'm happy to attest to that. Um, but you know, I can think one very specifically where I got

22:19 the no, but the no was very conversational and they were just like, you know, they basically had said, "Hey, this is amazing. I think other people should be doing what you guys are doing

22:26 for me." And I was like, you know, but it was very early in the engagement. I was like, "Well, hey, you know, anyone come to mind?" And they go, they're like, "Let me let me get more months

22:35 under my belt before I feel comfortable making it cuz I just want to really truly feel strong strongly from experience." So, it was a no, but it was also a no

22:44 with a very like, hey, it's a time frame. The reason made perfect sense and, you know, open the opportunity for a follow. I haven't hit the couple months, so I'm not rushing it, but it's

22:52 like, you know, like this is then going to be the opportunity to come back and it was very comfortable. It was not awkward. We were just having a conversation and,

23:00 you know, I'm looking forward to reopening it and maybe it's a no again cuz they're like, hey, you know, right now, whatever reason or like actually you guys didn't meet expectations.

23:09 That's gonna be the hardest part for me.

23:11 But yeah, like you know, at the end of the day, um, you know, it's been with poor technique and good technique, it's a super effective from my own experience.

23:19 Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Just and just remember when you go back to that person, remember the silos, right?

23:24 Remember that when you make that broad ask, who can you introduce me to? Even if they want to help you, they can't.

23:31 Again, it's not the way we organize information, just not, right? So, I think that's an important one. Um, any other questions for me before I sort of

23:39 make my last sort of offer to your uh folks? Um, yeah. So, I I mean I think I think I know where you're going with this. You

23:48 know, the template you were talking about sending somebody. Is that where you're going? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Please.

23:54 Okay. All right. So, so if this was valuable, if you want to learn more, no strings attached. I've gone back to the original slide. Just email me and ask me

24:03 for the referrals template. I have a two-page document that the first section is a script for how you might ask for

24:12 the referral. It follows what I just did with you, Austin. There's a second version of how you ask for the referral.

24:18 And then part three of this two-page document is exactly what I copy and paste. When you say you're going to introduce me to Sam, I copy and paste

24:26 this, drop it in an email to you. So again, all three parts, two ways to ask, and then an email template that you can

24:33 use. Uh, no strings attached. Happy to provide it to you and any of your listeners, just have them email and say

24:40 referrals template in the subject line and I'll be happy to get that to them. Cool.

24:45 All right. And besides, you know, obviously grab these templates from Brian. What is that, Brian? What would you say is like if somebody's listening in to get those templates and then what

24:54 is something I should apply for my own sales practice? like the one big takeaway from this conversation that I give you we you listen for like a solid

25:01 20 25 minutes but what's the one thing that I have to make sure sticks when I walk away and you know start applying something tomorrow I I think if I think

25:09 the simplest one I could give you is make asking for referrals a consistent behavior and if I could go

25:17 kind of one little indent under that burn into your brain when you get a compliment ask for referral when you get a compliment ask for referral

25:26 If you can kind of burn that into your brain, and all your listeners can burn that into their brain, they're going to do better. So, yeah. I mean, look,

25:34 referrals are the magic pixie dust that can allow us to explode our pipelines if we do it well and if we do it consistently.

25:42 Yeah. No, it's great, Brian. Really appreciate you taking the time. All right. Thank you very much.

25:47 Appreciate it. Have a good rest of your day. Take care.