Lisa Schnare on SDR Leadership, Sales Hiring, and Prospecting Discipline

Transcript

0:02 All right, we have another episode of

0:03 Tailwind. Today we're joined by Lisa

0:05 Schneer. Lisa, tell us a little bit more

0:06 about yourself.

0:08 >> Thanks, Austin. It's great to be here.

0:09 Um, yeah, my name is Lisa Schnar. I am

0:12 currently with Value Selling Associates.

0:13 I'm an associate. I'm a trainer. I'm a

0:16 sales consultant and my background is uh

0:19 one of the best, you know, SDR from the

0:22 beginning. SDR for life. I uh started my

0:25 my tech corporate sales career uh at a

0:28 little company called Radian 6 which two

0:31 weeks after I started got acquired by a

0:33 slightly larger company called

0:34 Salesforce and I went through that

0:37 acquisition process with them as an SDR

0:39 calling into Fortune 500 accounts uh on

0:41 behalf of Radian 6 which still exists.

0:43 It's part of the marketing cloud for

0:44 Salesforce now and from there I kind of

0:47 caught the startup bug. So I actually

0:49 went on to join four other tech startups

0:52 and to help them build, enable,

0:54 operationalize their sales development

0:56 teams. So the first part of my career

0:58 was very focused on cold calling and

1:01 cold emailing, the prospecting, that

1:03 kind of stuff. Worked my way up into

1:05 managing those teams. I was like the the

1:08 OG SDR and then I would hire a team

1:10 under me and then I would manage that

1:12 team and then ultimately get poached to

1:14 another uh tech startup and then I would

1:16 do it again. Uh, so I did that four

1:18 different times until 2020 hit and

1:20 everybody remembers good old COVID. I

1:23 actually got laid off from my position

1:24 at that time and managing an SDR team

1:26 and also managing some operations for

1:28 that company helping them open a second

1:30 HQ and do some enablement and was part

1:33 of the LT there and then I decided to

1:35 start my own consulting company. So that

1:37 was the birth of my company impulsion

1:39 sales consulting which is a certified

1:42 licency of value selling associates as

1:44 well and I have been a sales trainer

1:47 sales consultant for the last five six

1:50 years I guess now 2026 six years and I

1:54 looking back I've actually trained now

1:56 over 4700 people in the last 5 years and

2:00 that sales training methodology value

2:02 selling associates has been around for

2:04 30 years we compete with like the

2:06 fandlers and the challengers and the gap

2:08 sales and all of those types of sales

2:10 training. It's a global methodology. So

2:12 I now work with companies of all

2:14 different sizes, all different kinds,

2:16 all different industries. I work with

2:18 their B2B sales teams to train them to

2:21 sell on value and not price. And some of

2:24 that training also still includes my

2:27 favorite task which is the cold calling,

2:28 the prospecting. We have very specific

2:30 prospecting training as well as training

2:32 for growth and management of accounts

2:34 like account planning and growth. So, I

2:36 work with CSMS, really anyone who

2:37 touches the revenue funnel. So, uh, so

2:40 yeah, I'm out in the field training

2:42 teams every other week pretty much. Uh,

2:45 so I travel a lot doing that. So, I've

2:47 got a lot of hands-on experience with a

2:48 lot of different industries and a lot of

2:50 different sales teams. And I'm super

2:51 excited to to be chatting with you today

2:53 about it, Austin.

2:54 >> Yeah, I'm excited. I got to ask, why

2:56 have you decided to stick in the hardest

2:57 part of the sales process right at the

3:00 beginning? because that is

3:01 >> maybe something twisted.

3:03 >> But yeah, that is where someone is

3:06 trying to get in there, get their dues

3:07 in, and then get out of there, and

3:09 you've stuck around.

3:10 >> Yeah. Yeah, there's probably something

3:12 super twisted in there. Uh sadistic

3:14 even. Um but I do love it. I don't know

3:16 why. It's probably because it's one of

3:18 the hardest jobs in sales, if not the

3:20 hardest job in sales, is that initial

3:23 anxiety around cold calling, cold

3:25 emailing, uh how to get uh our prospects

3:28 attention, how to earn that attention,

3:30 and it's just constantly changing as you

3:33 know. It's like one thing works and then

3:35 we hear all of the fodder about cold

3:38 calling doesn't work anymore, cold

3:39 emailing doesn't work anymore, now it's

3:41 all AI and now you don't need SDR teams

3:44 anymore. Oh yes, you do. The AI is not

3:46 perfect. Everybody is everywhere all the

3:48 time. And we've seen that over the last

3:50 more than a decade. I've seen that uh

3:53 those different trends come and go. And

3:55 the the best part about it is honestly

3:57 just like the examination of the human

3:59 condition. What do buyers actually want

4:02 from people who are prospecting to them?

4:05 How do they buy? How do we earn their

4:07 attention? What combination of creative

4:10 things can we do in order to get some of

4:12 that attention? How do we actually get

4:14 ahead of the sales cycle so that we're

4:15 being proactive with getting prospects

4:18 in the door rather than reactive with

4:20 all that inbound traffic which we can't

4:22 rely on? So, I think my nerdiness just

4:25 loves that our buyers are always

4:28 expecting different things from us and

4:30 how do we keep up with that and how do

4:31 we make sure that we're being persistent

4:34 but respectful and not just like super

4:36 spamming people. It's uh I don't know.

4:39 It's just something I've always been

4:40 fascinated with. And I think also again

4:42 going back to because it's hard. I think

4:45 if you're really good at this, if you

4:46 can master it, you will never want for

4:49 work no matter what you do. I've built a

4:51 business based on being able to cold

4:53 call and and find those referrals and

4:56 and be persistent and yet still always

4:59 adding value. So that that helped me in

5:02 so many different ways as as I was

5:04 building my business. As you know,

5:05 you're building a business, too. It's um

5:07 it's something that you as a skill, it's

5:10 got to be like one of the best that I've

5:11 seen in the field that serves people so

5:13 well as they go forward into whatever

5:15 role they go into. Having that skill set

5:17 has just been Yeah. like super helpful.

5:20 >> Yeah. I mean, I'd argue it's the hardest

5:22 one that it's also a little bit ironic

5:24 that we give it to the newest people in

5:27 the organization. Yeah.

5:28 >> Yeah.

5:29 >> Yeah. But, you know, one of those things

5:30 that you're kind of talking about is

5:31 that your mindset, your mentality going

5:33 into it and how you approach it. Um,

5:35 when you're looking to bring people onto

5:37 your team, whether it be SDR or full

5:39 cycle AE, you know, what are you looking

5:41 for? How do you ID the people who are

5:42 going to fit well into that the spear of

5:45 the organization? Really, the tip of the

5:46 spear.

5:47 >> It is. It's a tough one. And and

5:49 depending on the type of team, you you

5:51 kind of alluded to it. If you're hiring

5:53 people who are basically fresh out of

5:54 college, it's, you know, one of their

5:56 first real jobs, it's really tough

5:58 because they they don't have the resume

6:00 of resilience and like, hey, in this

6:02 sales role, I got this quota and blah

6:04 blah blah. So, what are you looking for?

6:06 Well, oftent times I'll I'll I'll just

6:08 say it straight out. There were a few

6:09 trends. People who are athletes, people

6:13 who are super passionate about

6:15 something. It doesn't have to be

6:16 athletes. I hired some incredible STRs

6:19 that were like into creative writing and

6:21 they were very passionate about their

6:22 writing and man could they write emails

6:24 me. Anyway, but yeah, now I mean now we

6:26 have all these tools that that support a

6:28 lot of those those soft skills but it's

6:31 uh I would look for people who had

6:34 pursued a passion had uh experienced

6:37 challenges in that pursuit and I would

6:40 ask very specific questions about how

6:42 they overcame them, what their mindset

6:44 was. Um, and then like you know in the

6:47 face of times when they lost, how did

6:51 they handle that? How did they bring

6:52 themselves back around? Resilience. You

6:54 know, you're trying to uncover that

6:55 resilience. Um, and I think just

6:58 honestly being transparent as a hiring

7:00 manager. I was never trying to hide that

7:03 you were going into sales. It used to

7:05 drive me crazy the people who would call

7:07 it a marketing role. And it's like, no,

7:09 this is sales. You will carry a quota.

7:12 you will be expected to hit a certain

7:13 activity number every day. It is my job

7:16 as your manager to enable you to do that

7:18 confidently. Um, however, like that is

7:21 the expectation and it's like we're not

7:23 going to sugarcoat this. You are in

7:25 sales. You are carrying a quota. That

7:27 performance will be measured. It will be

7:29 visible, you know, and making sure that

7:31 people really knew the the well whole

7:33 story of what they're walking into

7:35 rather than trying to sugarcoat it. Now,

7:37 um, you know, a lot of other traits that

7:38 I looked for were how how eloquent are

7:42 you like in in how you present yourself,

7:44 how you speak in an interview, you're

7:47 selling yourself. You know, it is one of

7:49 the times that you're you're selling.

7:50 So, how do you come across? I I've got

7:53 some like kind of horror stories during

7:55 COVID when I was interviewing people for

7:56 for my clients and people showing up in

7:59 their hoodies or pajamas. Uh, one guy

8:01 was actually holding and eating a bowl

8:03 of cereal during the interview and I was

8:06 like, "Dude, did you realize this is an

8:08 interview?" Like anyway,

8:10 >> you know, your camera's on right now.

8:12 >> Yeah, exactly. I was like, "Okay." Uh,

8:15 so, you know, like there's there's some

8:16 cliches that I I actually still believe

8:18 like the get up, dress up, show up.

8:20 Like, hey, even if you're working from

8:22 home, if you're about to sell yourself,

8:24 >> please put in a bit of effort. um

8:26 because I am trusting you to be able to

8:29 speak to my customers. So that is like

8:32 you know you think about it that's the

8:33 most delicate balance that we have as a

8:35 company and and we want our customer

8:37 experience to be top-notch and if it's

8:39 not that has reverberations throughout

8:42 our business. So, as a face of the

8:44 company that's on the front lines as the

8:46 cold caller or full cycle sales rep,

8:48 whatever, whoever, your image and your

8:50 your your presence, it's your

8:52 confidence, your passion for what you're

8:54 selling, all of that has to come across

8:56 in order for you to be convincing and

8:57 successful in this role.

8:59 >> Yeah. Yeah. I've always liked hiring

9:02 athletes because they're team players

9:04 and then it seems like the resiliency

9:06 factor and even if you're not, you know,

9:08 frontline and you're maybe doing

9:10 operations or something, things are

9:11 going to go wrong or you're going to

9:13 give be given a tough time and if you

9:14 have anything that in your resume that

9:16 shows that you are at least willing to

9:18 deal with it maybe like not that you'll

9:21 avoid ever making mistake because that's

9:22 just going to happen. Even if it's not

9:24 your fault, it'll happen. But then how

9:26 are you going to respond to that

9:28 happening and how are you going to move

9:29 forward from it and what are your

9:30 reactions going to be? Um it seems like

9:33 that's even more important when you're

9:34 going to have to hit the phones every

9:36 day which is already you know a t

9:39 emotionally taxing exercise even if

9:41 you've been doing it for a while it's

9:43 still one of those things where you

9:44 still got to hype yourself up for it.

9:46 >> Um yes once you found those people and

9:48 you brought them in like what are some

9:49 of the ways that you're you know looking

9:51 for those top performers? How are you

9:53 tracking the indicators that can let you

9:54 know like, hey, this I got some

9:55 superstars coming along or maybe I need

9:58 to either focus and train this person or

10:00 help them find a new role in the

10:01 organization.

10:03 >> Yeah. Yeah. I think what you were

10:04 saying, you know, another thing about

10:05 athletes is, you know, they're

10:06 coachable. So once you've got that's

10:09 another indicator, right? Um, but also

10:11 once you've got somebody enroll, I do

10:13 find like the people who are seeking the

10:16 coaching, it's it's such a great early

10:18 indicator that like they're seeking out

10:20 the extra coaching or you even working

10:23 with their peers, you know, so if you

10:26 know when they're coming in and you've

10:27 got some some more experienced people on

10:29 the team, you've got this the this new

10:31 team, them taking the initiative to

10:33 like, okay, who is the superstar on this

10:35 team? I want to find out exactly who

10:37 they are. like I'm coming for them and

10:39 you know that kind of attitude is uh you

10:41 know I don't I like people who are team

10:43 players as well. Unfortunately we the

10:45 way we're set up it's an individual

10:47 quota. So it is it's a team sport and I

10:49 always like tried to foster that with my

10:51 teams but ultimately your your quota

10:54 your commission is yours. So you want to

10:56 be the top or in the top of the

10:58 leaderboard. There's room for everyone

11:00 up there. That's also the beauty of

11:02 sales is like my success does not take

11:04 away from yours. So if anything, there

11:07 is room to share all of those best

11:09 practices and really pull the whole team

11:11 up with you. So I'd always look for that

11:13 from my more experienced people as well

11:15 is like are they willing to share those

11:16 secrets? Are they are they being

11:18 proactive in in sharing their knowledge

11:20 and what's working, what's not working,

11:22 and of course like having those team

11:23 meetings to share that. But when it

11:25 comes to enroll, I'm also looking at how

11:28 are people motivated? And a lot of the

11:30 time we focus really in on the money in

11:32 sales, right? It's like commission,

11:33 commission, commission. Everybody wants

11:34 to make money. I was an anomaly. I

11:37 wanted to do well, but it wasn't just

11:40 money motivation for me. I was really

11:42 interested in the coaching aspect of it.

11:44 I was really interested in my customers.

11:47 I like super nerd here. I love

11:50 understanding how are companies going to

11:51 market, what are they selling, who are

11:53 their customers, and why should their

11:55 customers care about what they sell? And

11:57 how can what I do help my customer sell

12:00 to more of their customers? And if I can

12:02 connect to that, then then I become a

12:05 need to have, not a nice to have. And I

12:08 think my curiosity and like really

12:10 understanding my my buyer and their

12:12 buyer and how I cared about that and the

12:15 passion that came with that was

12:16 something that my customers always

12:18 picked up on. And so even though I was

12:21 like top, you know, top of the

12:22 leaderboard and things like that and I

12:23 worked really hard and I made the calls

12:25 and I wanted to learn more about people.

12:28 And so for me that made me a natural um

12:32 kind of path into management. Not

12:34 everybody likes that. That's totally

12:36 cool. But we're all motivated by

12:38 different things. And I think that's my

12:39 point is like understanding what is the

12:42 motivation for each of those people on

12:43 your team. Is it just commission? If

12:46 it's not, how else can you help to

12:49 motivate them in that role? Is it

12:51 vacation time? Is it uh family time? Is

12:54 it work life balance? like what is it

12:56 that's going to really get them fired

12:57 up? I used to also if if people were

13:00 like hitting their their quotas or like

13:02 you know maintaining their quotas, I

13:04 would also offer them passion projects

13:06 within the organization. So I would talk

13:08 to other teams and be like, "Okay, if

13:10 you're interested in product, would you

13:12 like to do a little side project with

13:14 the product team and learn more about

13:16 how they do, you know, like our quality

13:18 testing or code testing or whatever,

13:20 like in the product side of things, how

13:21 they build their road map, you know,

13:22 like and so that that glimpse into other

13:26 pieces of the organization, especially

13:27 like what you're saying earlier when

13:29 you're hiring STRs that don't have a lot

13:31 of job experience, they don't

13:32 necessarily know what they want to do.

13:33 They're trying to figure out what don't

13:35 I want to do? maybe I hate this cold

13:37 calling thing and now now I'm in here.

13:38 What do I do? And if I can repurpose

13:41 that passion into something else and

13:42 help them eliminate that, that's where I

13:44 got the satisfaction from which, you

13:46 know, made me a good manager. But, uh, I

13:48 do find that a lot of the time and and

13:50 you'll have seen this too, we promote

13:52 people who are really good individual

13:54 contributors because they're really good

13:56 individual contributors. They get

13:58 promoted into management. They are not

14:00 good managers. All they know how to do

14:02 is close their own deals. So instead of

14:04 coaching other people how to do it, they

14:06 just go in and close their deals for

14:08 them and then they get burnt out and

14:09 resentful. So that's another another

14:12 thing I think we need to be conscious of

14:13 like building these teams from the

14:15 ground up is like where do people really

14:16 want to go? How does that skill set

14:18 look? Um and and you know then also you

14:21 said you mentioned key indicators of

14:23 course you know there's the vanity

14:24 metrics around effort like we are always

14:26 tracking how many calls are you making

14:28 how many emails are you getting out the

14:29 door the things like that a lot of which

14:30 we can automate nowadays with tools like

14:33 yours and it's you know so now it's kind

14:36 of like where's the quality coming from

14:38 how am I looking at those more

14:43 less I guess less clear less measurable

14:45 KPIs around like how is the passion

14:47 behind this where is the energy

14:49 um what what creative things are they

14:51 bringing to the table to try like hey

14:54 inside this cadence that I'm using? What

14:56 if we did this? What if we did that?

14:58 Like if I'm hearing ideas like that,

14:59 they're like they're really wrapping

15:01 their heads around it. Um and that's the

15:03 the type of creativity I want to find.

15:05 It's harder to measure, but it's like

15:06 those indicators are something that I

15:08 would I would definitely be looking for

15:09 as a manager.

15:10 >> Yeah. Yeah. I guess like how much

15:12 somebody is personally investing

15:14 themselves into improving the process.

15:16 Maybe not something that you can just

15:17 easily put a one definable KPI on, but I

15:20 think anyone can watch anecdotally and

15:23 start picking up on who's raising their

15:24 hand, who's coming up with ideas, you

15:27 know, who's staying an extra 15 minutes

15:28 after work. Not that I'm saying that's a

15:30 requirement, but like you can start kind

15:32 of picking up on the the situation there

15:34 by just kind of seeing people's behavior

15:36 patterns and all of that. Now, yeah,

15:38 >> love to talk more about like retention

15:39 and like the positive stuff, but you

15:41 know, the obligatory like tough

15:43 question, which is

15:44 >> what do you how do you handle the

15:46 situation where you bring someone in,

15:47 they thought they were going to be a

15:48 good fit, they're not you're starting to

15:50 see the signs that they're not a good

15:52 fit, you know, what are the kind of the

15:54 actions that you take in order to make

15:56 sure that you continue to, you know, try

15:58 to build a strong team instead of just

16:00 leaving whatever team's in place.

16:02 >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's it's never where

16:04 we want to focus to your point but I I

16:06 got you know I got really

16:09 >> I got really lucky in my career. I had

16:11 uh I actually had 100% turnover at one

16:13 company to internal promotions. Um so

16:16 once yeah it's like I had I had 0%

16:18 retention but it was all because they

16:19 got they got farmed into like they were

16:21 the farm team for the rest of the

16:23 company. So I was constantly hiring

16:25 which was awesome. There are two very

16:27 specific scenarios and the first one I

16:29 was quite early in my career and I gave

16:32 this person way too many chances. I I

16:35 kind of took it on myself as a manager

16:37 that there was something I was not

16:38 enabling them with. There was something

16:41 that was not clicking for them and so I

16:44 really let it go on way too long. So I

16:46 learned this lesson the hard way. So, my

16:48 first piece of advice would be like if

16:50 you're getting those indicators that

16:52 there there's an issue or it's not maybe

16:53 a fit, do something early. Um, because I

16:57 would say I think it was almost a year,

16:59 like eight months probably before I

17:01 finally had to sit down and have that

17:03 like termination conversation. I did

17:05 talk about performance with this person

17:07 multiple times. And I think the first

17:09 thing I mentioned it earlier but the

17:11 first thing everyone should be aware of

17:13 is that your metrics in sales are

17:15 visible to the entire organization. You

17:18 have a CRM of some kind. Meaning anyone

17:21 who knows how to go in there and look at

17:23 reports can look at your metrics. So

17:26 even if there is no big leaderboard up

17:28 on the window or the wall, it doesn't

17:30 matter. Anyone can go into that system

17:32 and see how you're doing. So and those

17:34 people in the organization don't have

17:37 any context as to why your performance

17:40 is what it is. They are purely looking

17:42 at numbers. So there is no they don't

17:45 know you went on a two week vacation

17:46 that month and that's why your monthly

17:48 numbers look terrible. They don't know

17:49 any of those details. Right? So your

17:52 manager does know that context and they

17:55 should be talking to you about what that

17:57 looks like and and you should be very

17:59 aware of the visibility that we have

18:01 throughout the organization in sales. Um

18:04 you know there is no hiding that. So I

18:06 mean it's very rare now that we come

18:08 across any organization that doesn't

18:09 have a CRM system of some kind. You know

18:12 it's uh so you can't really hide in

18:14 sales. So that's the first thing I

18:15 always make sure people know is like if

18:17 you're if I'm going into the system and

18:18 seeing this, imagine our VP going in and

18:21 seeing it and not knowing that you are

18:24 who you are or struggling with whatever,

18:26 what does that look like to them? And so

18:28 making sure people are aware of that and

18:30 then I mean it's not meant to be a fear

18:32 tactic. It is reality. Sorry. Like it's

18:35 reality. And um and if that's not

18:38 something that you can handle, if that's

18:39 not a pressure you can handle, then

18:41 maybe sales isn't for you. And that's

18:42 the conversation starter for me. Um,

18:45 when it came down to the second time,

18:48 like I said, I only had to fire people

18:49 twice because of performance. Um, there

18:51 was I definitely had to put people

18:52 through layoffs. That's part of startup

18:54 life. That's even worse, but that's a

18:56 whole other conversation. when it comes

18:58 to that that performance indication. I

19:00 actually had a person I was really

19:02 excited about and noticed that they were

19:04 taking advantage of the automation tools

19:06 that we now have at our fingertips um

19:09 for cadences and email building and

19:11 things like that. And I was going in and

19:13 I was checking. So managers, you should

19:15 be spot-checking what the emails look

19:16 like. Are they being customized? Are

19:19 there mistakes like hi first name, you

19:21 know, like things like that that are

19:22 happening that are showing you very

19:24 clearly that that that person is not

19:26 double-checking their work. It's there's

19:28 no quality control. There's no

19:29 personalization. There's no um there's

19:32 no creativity beyond what they're being

19:33 given. So, um so that would be something

19:36 I would spot check. And within the first

19:38 six weeks, I I identified this person as

19:40 someone who is just pressing play on

19:41 cadences and then watching YouTube

19:43 videos all day or whatever. And so I I

19:47 honestly pulled them in and I just said,

19:48 you know, like um how like considering

19:51 what's going on here, uh how do you

19:54 think I think you're doing? And putting

19:58 them in my shoes in that question really

20:00 helped them to honestly it was just

20:02 like, yeah, I kind of hate this job. And

20:06 it was like, yeah, I can tell. And you

20:09 know what? Like I don't want that. You

20:11 don't want that. How do we help you find

20:14 another way? because it's not here. I

20:16 don't want you on Sunday afternoon

20:18 getting the Sunday scaries and dreading

20:20 coming into this office every day

20:21 because you hate your life. Nobody wants

20:22 that. And that attitude, I don't care

20:25 how good you are at hiding it, you're

20:27 they're going to hear it on the other

20:28 end of your cold calls in your voice

20:30 that you don't love what you do, that

20:31 you're not passionate about what you're

20:32 selling, that you're not connected to

20:34 what it's solving, you know, and that.

20:36 So, I need someone who is connected to

20:38 those things. And I need you to be happy

20:40 because I'm a human being. I want

20:42 everyone to find their passion and be

20:44 wildly successful and happy in the

20:45 world. So, you know,

20:47 >> and then there was that same person like

20:49 six months later was like that was the

20:51 best thing you could have ever done for

20:52 me. Like messaged me on LinkedIn like

20:54 whole thing. So, found found their niche

20:57 was like super happy with it. So, I

20:59 think yeah, you know, looking back again

21:01 like success story with firing someone

21:04 versus me taking way too long to do it.

21:06 It would just be like be open and

21:07 transparent and address things quickly

21:10 and put you know put them in your shoes

21:14 like what you know I'm supposed to be

21:16 reporting on these metrics and this is

21:18 what I'm seeing in your performance

21:19 right here. What would you do if you

21:21 were me? This is like you've tied my

21:24 hands here bud. I would love to help you

21:26 out. What can I do? And of course I was

21:29 always there like how do I enable you to

21:31 do this better? What else do you need?

21:33 Um, but when it came right down to the

21:35 the fit or the attitude just not being

21:37 there, then you know it's it's time to

21:39 to say goodbye.

21:40 >> Well, and and you already mentioned

21:42 this, but like having that already

21:44 established at the beginning during the

21:45 hiring process and what your

21:46 expectations are going to be. It's like

21:48 it's I think it's totally fair to then

21:49 come in and say, I told you before we

21:51 even got you on board, this is what was

21:54 going to happen and now you know these

21:56 expectations are not being met. U it's

21:58 an uncomfortable part of the job but

22:00 it's also if you're going to be in a

22:01 leadership role you are not in you're

22:03 not an independent contributor anymore

22:05 you are individual contributor you are

22:07 going to have to have the these

22:09 uncomfortable conversations and make

22:11 these decisions at times um but to flip

22:14 to a more fun topic 100% churn but just

22:17 going into all the organization tell me

22:19 a little bit more about that and was

22:20 that part of your retainment strategy

22:22 and then it just the way that it

22:23 happened with turnout with that team

22:25 ended up being you got poached by the

22:27 rest of the

22:28 Yeah. Yeah. I think it was I mean I hope

22:31 it's not a unique situation. I think it

22:32 might be unique to startups in a way

22:34 because like we were growing so fast and

22:37 the people that I was hiring I was

22:39 hiring for um a a unique skill set. So

22:42 we already talked about some of the

22:43 things like looking for certain things

22:44 in the hiring process. Other teams were

22:47 also open to people who didn't

22:49 necessarily have a wealth of experience.

22:51 they were willing to take a chance on

22:53 people who were six months or eight

22:54 months with in the SDR role

22:56 understanding the product and things

22:58 like that and seeing those proclivities

23:00 for certain other parts of the team. So

23:01 like they were getting poached into

23:03 junior CS roles. I had someone in a

23:05 junior product specialist role had other

23:07 people go over into like the support

23:09 side of things. Um so and marketing I

23:12 had another person get you know went

23:14 over into the marketing side of things.

23:15 Um, you know, like clearly there's

23:17 things you can't transcend. Like you

23:19 can't go to being a developer without

23:21 the schooling to back that up or like in

23:23 finance or something like that. You

23:24 know, there's there's certain areas that

23:26 that's just not going to fly. But with

23:27 the rest of the the revenue sort of

23:29 organization, customerf facing

23:31 organization, there was a ton of

23:33 opportunity on those teams as well. And

23:34 so I think also having a company that

23:36 was pretty dedicated to like what can we

23:38 do for internal stuff first and where I

23:42 I don't know I could I had also kind of

23:44 built this machine of being able to hire

23:46 really great SDRs for the most part and

23:48 train them up. I had really honed in

23:50 like the ramp up process and um and how

23:53 to make sure that everybody was enabled

23:55 and getting those I had the systems in

23:57 place you know so that was a big part of

23:59 it too because I do find companies

24:01 really struggle with that onboarding and

24:02 ramping time. Um, and understanding that

24:05 that's also got to be part of

24:07 establishing your numbers. So, as a

24:09 manager who had to report back on my

24:10 team and my numbers, you got to build in

24:13 that ramp time because otherwise you're

24:15 always chasing a goal that you're never

24:17 hitting. And it's like, okay, well,

24:18 based on how much you're hiring and what

24:20 that percentage looks like at any given

24:22 time, what does that mean for those

24:24 numbers? And where are you going to hit

24:25 realistically if you don't have an a

24:27 senior SDR team? And on the flip side,

24:30 and that we're we're talking a lot about

24:32 SDRs here, but I'll say a full full

24:34 cycle salespeople, too. You've got

24:36 people who they're lifers in that role.

24:38 They want to stay in that role. So, like

24:41 those people can carry that quota. They

24:43 can potentially take on a little bit

24:44 more responsibility with onboarding and

24:46 stuff like that because they're really

24:48 good at that role and that's all they

24:49 want to do. They want to just come to

24:50 work and know they can crush it and go

24:52 home, you know, and that's fair and

24:54 that's like, you know, it's rare, I'll

24:56 say, in those roles because it's usually

24:57 burnout after, you know, max 18 months.

25:00 People are like, I don't want to cold

25:01 call ever again in my life. Um, you

25:03 know, normal people who aren't like me

25:04 who just keep doing it. But um yeah, for

25:07 the most part you're kind of uh ex I

25:10 would say yeah going back to your

25:11 question it would be kind of unique to

25:13 the organizational ethos of like we want

25:16 to focus on making opportunities

25:18 available to people who are more junior

25:20 you know you think about it it's like

25:22 they've got the product knowledge at

25:23 that point they've got you know like

25:24 they're already onboarded so much so to

25:27 get them into that next customerf facing

25:29 role whatever it looks like is not a

25:31 huge lift at that point.

25:32 >> Yeah. Did you notice because you worked

25:35 at multiple startups, did you notice

25:36 anything different about the impact of

25:39 having SDRs being distributed to the

25:41 other teams?

25:43 >> They were they went on to be like

25:45 insanely successful. So, I've kept in

25:47 touch with like almost everyone that

25:48 ever worked for me and it's like you'll

25:50 sometimes on my LinkedIn I'll get all

25:52 these comments from people and or I'll

25:53 see where they've gotten promoted to and

25:55 the jobs and the companies that they've

25:56 gone on to do like a lot of them are

25:58 directors of sales now enterprise sales

26:00 reps at Fortune50 companies like they're

26:03 doing so well now and it's um but all of

26:05 them went on to I think this is part of

26:07 it part of what we were even saying

26:08 about identifying when it's not a fit

26:11 like most people are not in that role

26:13 for life so and if they but if they take

26:16 on that attitude of like if I master

26:18 this, this is a skill that'll project me

26:21 into something else. So then being able

26:23 to take that experience, do really well

26:26 at it, and pivot into what something

26:28 you're much more interested in. That I

26:30 think is why they were so successful is

26:32 like then they got to pursue that

26:34 passion. And I'd say like career advice

26:36 for anyone who's starting out in sales,

26:38 whether it's full cycle sales or SDR

26:40 role, if it is not your endgame, don't

26:44 stay in it for too long because you get

26:46 addicted to the money. And then when you

26:49 want to make the jump into your like

26:51 chosen field, if you want to go from

26:52 being a commission rep to a marketing

26:55 person and you no longer make

26:57 commission, it is hard to break up with

26:59 that paycheck. Yeah,

27:02 I'm not going to lie. There were times

27:03 where I got frustrated as a a project

27:05 manager, a leader of project managers.

27:07 We'd like renew accounts and then the

27:09 seller would get the commission check.

27:10 And I'd always look at that and be like,

27:12 I feel like my team should have gotten

27:13 the commission check. That seller came

27:15 in and like signed the paper that we we

27:18 negotiated everything and then they came

27:20 in and we're like, "All right, docy

27:21 sign." And then there's out. I was like,

27:22 "Hold on, let us have that commission

27:24 check." Anyway, so that's a whole other

27:26 tangent. Um,

27:27 >> honestly,

27:28 >> but you know, I I just find it so

27:30 interesting having people start in like

27:32 an SDR role and then going to another

27:34 role that still is within their skill

27:36 set because I think often times when

27:38 you're in those other departments, uh,

27:40 especially if you've never actually

27:41 worked in a sales role, you kind of

27:43 don't understand the value, what your

27:46 customers are seeing or how that process

27:48 works or you know, you know, you know,

27:51 from somebody and my apologies, but I've

27:54 been in the roles where I've looked at

27:55 the sales team and been so like upset

27:56 set with them for like what's going on

27:58 and all like what are you guys doing?

28:00 You're throwing us under the bus. You're

28:01 creating scenarios where we're going to

28:02 lose money. Um and just never been in

28:05 that role, never understanding what's

28:07 happening. And just being able to say,

28:09 hey, you know, I was in that that

28:11 business unit. I came over to this one.

28:13 I understand what's happening over

28:15 there. So now I have a new perspective.

28:17 I know how to actually talk to our

28:18 clients in a different way because they

28:19 have expectations that are set during

28:21 these conversations. They've evolved

28:23 over time as they've talked to us and

28:25 they're they're now sitting on this

28:26 journey and you like if you're always in

28:29 this part of the unit, you're not seeing

28:30 the rest of the journey that they were

28:32 and you can be told about it as much as

28:34 you want, but until you experience it,

28:36 it's uh it's something completely

28:37 different. Um

28:39 >> yeah, I I agree with you to a point. I

28:41 think there was there is a bit of a gap

28:43 I find in that companies don't always

28:46 explain uh things like CAC cost to

28:49 acquire customers and like so what does

28:52 that actually look like if we put

28:53 somebody in as a customer who is not a

28:56 great fit if they don't renew we don't

29:00 actually make any money on that customer

29:01 because of the CAC. So, it's like when

29:04 when you explain the business end of

29:06 like why do we need to be aligned across

29:08 the entire revenue team and like

29:10 understanding that that sale you just

29:12 made if if you just sold something we

29:14 can't deliver on and they're not going

29:16 to renew and they're just going to be an

29:17 angry customer because you sold some

29:18 product that doesn't exist yet, then

29:20 we're losing money every time you do

29:22 that. And so, that's a big problem. And

29:24 then it's got to come back to I would I

29:26 would put this on the managers too

29:28 because my understanding of that as a

29:30 manager meant my qualification criteria

29:32 for like throughout the sales stages

29:34 would change because it's like you you

29:36 cannot sell that to somebody and and not

29:39 have it be able to be delivered by the

29:40 team that's receiving this customer and

29:42 ultimately having to onboard train and

29:44 and then maintain that relationship. Um

29:46 there's just uh you're shooting us in

29:48 the foot before we even get started. So

29:50 I mean I think have I would always take

29:52 time and that was something beautiful

29:53 about startups too is like you'd have

29:55 these town halls where your finance team

29:57 would actually go through like Ibida and

29:59 CAC and all this stuff and you'd learn

30:01 the finance side of like how this

30:02 business runs and especially like

30:04 startups we're not profitable we're

30:06 running off investor money and dreams

30:08 like it's like you know it's delusions

30:10 everywhere and so when when you realize

30:12 like your paycheck is finite our runway

30:15 is you know 18 months if we don't sell

30:17 and hit these numbers we're all looking

30:18 for jobs you know And so understanding

30:20 like how that engine fully works then

30:23 you're not you're also not setting your

30:24 colleagues up for those situations that

30:26 you were in going going why is this

30:27 sales team selling something that I

30:29 can't deliver and now I've just got an

30:30 angry customer who doesn't understand

30:32 what they signed up for you know and um

30:34 so I think that communication breaking

30:36 down those silos and that understanding

30:38 of the business is at least enough that

30:40 it's like it's still going to happen

30:42 unfortunately we're we're always going

30:44 to do it and we're always going to see

30:45 it. Um, but I think that that

30:47 understanding of like this is why we

30:49 have to have these criteria. This is why

30:51 you can't sell them that based on

30:52 promises, dreams, unicorns, and

30:54 rainbows. Um, because otherwise we we

30:57 don't make any money. You made the sale

30:59 and you're actually like shooting us in

31:01 the foot here. So, you know, it's it's

31:04 not um I find that a lot of companies

31:05 don't take the time to explain that. And

31:07 and again going back to startups just

31:09 like by the nature of being small and

31:12 transparent and open and like oh we got

31:14 this investor meeting next week. Well

31:15 what does that mean? What do investors

31:16 need to see? What do we have to present?

31:19 You know and even just like the the

31:20 other side of like how do we pad these

31:22 numbers um to make it look better

31:24 because we aren't hitting them and like

31:26 how do those conversations happen

31:28 without it actually being flatout fraud.

31:30 Yeah. So, I think that that

31:32 understanding those forecasts and how

31:34 how we talk about them and why it

31:37 matters that that it looks a certain

31:38 way. I mean, it's never going to be

31:40 perfectly clean, but it does help um

31:42 even just individually to be like this

31:44 is why it's communicated this way. And

31:46 and even when I was at startups where we

31:48 then had to go in and clean house with

31:50 layoffs because we we missed the

31:52 numbers. We really messed it up. And,

31:55 you know, just understanding

31:57 business-wise why that had to happen. It

32:00 was something I gave everyone I laid off

32:02 the courtesy of understanding this was

32:03 not performance. This was a company

32:06 screw-up. We we misshot it and we've got

32:09 to recalc calibrate. And this is part of

32:11 it. And you know, even hiring people,

32:13 going back to what we were saying, just

32:14 to kind of tie that in is I would say

32:16 like, do you want to be one in a hundred

32:20 and have the impact that you will have

32:23 on building a company and know that your

32:26 odds are lower because you're one of a

32:28 100? Or do you want to go work for an

32:30 organization where you're one in 20,000,

32:33 but you check the boxes, you will get

32:35 the promotion. You check the boxes, you

32:37 will keep your job, you will have

32:38 benefits, you will have all these

32:40 things. If you want that kind of

32:41 security and zero impact on the

32:43 business, you are a number to them, then

32:46 go do that.

32:47 >> Yeah.

32:48 >> If you want to be impactful and know

32:49 that every call that you make every day

32:52 means we get to keep our jobs longer,

32:55 >> then welcome to the team.

32:56 >> Yeah.

32:57 >> Here's your delusional hat.

33:01 >> For the moon. Yeah, I love that. Um, I

33:03 this is slightly tangential, but I just

33:05 love the fact that you're talking about

33:06 the acquisition cost compared to the

33:08 project. And I've I've been handed

33:10 projects by salespeople that I look at

33:12 them and I go, "We're going to lose

33:13 money on this." And their response was

33:16 always, "Well, you know, we might get a

33:18 deal from this." And they never

33:20 explained that. To them, it was like,

33:22 "Look, I'm trying to break into this

33:23 Fortune 500 company. the acquisition

33:26 cost of spending tons of money to whine

33:28 and dine them and to go out and do all

33:29 this and do that and then try to break

33:31 in again and it's going to take me five

33:33 10 years but I gave me this one little

33:35 bad project that's not a winner that

33:38 actually will lose this money but it if

33:40 it expedites this next five years will

33:43 be worth the cost of acquisition of you

33:45 guys basically doing

33:47 >> I mean they paid us but it was after all

33:49 of our internal expenses.

33:50 >> Yeah, you know free work.

33:52 >> It was free work. Yeah.

33:53 >> Yeah. Um, but I think that's just such

33:55 an interesting like uh way to think

33:58 about it and like to reframe and to to

33:59 talk about you're breaking down the

34:00 silos and to create better communication

34:03 is like if somebody had handed that and

34:04 be like look we're trying to get into

34:05 this organization. It would cost us x

34:08 amount of dollars to do it this way. We

34:10 get a big one where we all get paid

34:11 directly or you guys can do free work

34:14 for the next three months and we know

34:16 that sucks but at the same time you guys

34:18 could be part of acquiring a huge

34:20 company doing that. I would have been

34:21 like, "Oh, on board." But instead, like

34:23 they didn't know what they were doing

34:24 and they were just wasting our money.

34:26 Um, which they, you know, they probably

34:28 intuitively understood that, but the

34:29 lack of communication to be able to do

34:31 that, which I would argue is a great

34:32 reason for everyone to have an SDR job

34:34 and to be part of the sales team to then

34:36 to be able to comprehend, all right, as

34:38 the project manager on this team, I'm

34:41 doing these things because it's directly

34:42 related to my salary that's coming in

34:44 from these folks doing this really hard

34:46 work. Um, I think it's valuable.

34:49 >> No, you're not wrong. And honestly that

34:51 is something even on the value selling

34:53 training side of my business now in the

34:54 last 5 years like people will train

34:57 teams like back-end dev teams in value

35:01 selling so that they can understand

35:02 these conversations are happening this

35:04 way upfront with customers. This is how

35:06 we're collecting information. This is

35:07 how we're qualifying. This is how they

35:09 go through the sales stages. This is how

35:11 we're building this this methodology and

35:13 framework to be sustainable and scalable

35:14 across the organization. And that way,

35:17 even if they're like technical engineer

35:19 people, they're like, "This is why we're

35:21 talking to customers in this way." And

35:23 then connecting that to like and this is

35:25 why we're building what we're building

35:27 because customers are asking for these

35:29 things and this is what they use them

35:31 for and that's why it's valuable to

35:33 them. And like it's just like your value

35:37 in this widget that you feel like you've

35:39 spent three months building for no

35:41 reason goes way up because you're

35:43 understanding the endgame and the value

35:45 of that endgame. So, it's the same idea,

35:46 but I think to your point, the the other

35:48 really important thing is to make sure

35:50 organizationally you have a culture that

35:53 recognizes the attribution. So like your

35:55 team did free work for 3 months to earn

35:57 this Fortune50 huge marquee logo for us

36:00 that now was worth $15 million, you

36:03 know, but to make sure that you're

36:05 recognized for that initial sacrifice in

36:09 a way is like, you know, there are so

36:10 many teams that that went into this

36:12 pilot where we asked you to blind faith,

36:15 you know, we're going to use this as a

36:17 foot in the door and like then when it's

36:19 successful and when that all comes

36:21 together and that big contract SLAM, you

36:23 know, whatever is signed, then then

36:26 you've got that uh you've got that

36:28 recognition of

36:29 >> and that check that goes with it.

36:31 >> Yes. Yes. The bonuses. Hey, I I highly

36:34 recommend organizations look at that. I

36:36 will say what you were talking about

36:37 with the um with the account thing, the

36:39 renewal thing. I'm seeing way more CS

36:42 and account management teams now get

36:43 commission checks um because yeah, they

36:46 are they are um more responsible as well

36:49 for the renewal but also getting that

36:51 that uh monetary attribution. Yeah, I

36:54 mean it makes a ton of sense and really

36:56 the more you can bring the CS team into

36:58 the revenue team and make it seem like

37:00 one big family, you just are owning a

37:02 different part of the customer journey

37:04 and not bifurcating it and saying,

37:07 "Well, this is the sales process and

37:08 this is the delivery process." It's like

37:10 it's the same thing. And really, unless

37:12 you're trying to do transactional and

37:13 just throw something over the fence and

37:15 then run away from it, never work with

37:16 them again,

37:17 >> you are part of the sales team, once you

37:20 start working with the customer and

37:21 looking for that renewal at any point in

37:22 time.

37:23 >> Or even if it's maybe it's not a direct

37:25 renewal, but it's future projects,

37:27 right? It might not be something where

37:29 it's well in one year we're going to hit

37:30 the renew button, but it might be over

37:33 the next five years we're going to try

37:34 to get three of the things that are

37:36 coming through relevant to it. Um, but

37:39 you know, I think all right to bring us

37:41 back a little bit because we are a

37:42 little over time. I want to keep talking

37:44 a bit if you have it. Um, you know,

37:46 we've talked a lot about this uh the

37:48 prospecting aspect of it. Um, and we've

37:51 kind of bounced between SDR and AE

37:53 that's full cycle. You know, are there

37:55 any key nuances or differences that, you

37:58 know, people should really think about

37:59 when they're thinking about an SDR doing

38:00 their prospecting and AE doing their own

38:02 prospecting? Yeah, I think that you know

38:05 the most obvious one is time management

38:08 because if you've got an a full cycle

38:10 sales role, you're going to focus on the

38:12 things that are earning you commission,

38:13 which means that's that's the stages

38:14 that are in negotiation. That's the the

38:16 highly qualified leads. Um you're not

38:19 going to always prioritize going back

38:21 and doing those cold calls because

38:23 you've got a pipeline and that has such

38:25 a higher uh chance of closing, right?

38:27 Like we've got our st our forecasting

38:29 stages at at certain percentages for a

38:31 reason, right? So, if we've got things

38:33 stage three and above or whatever you

38:34 call it, but like mid pipeline and

38:36 above, that's got like that 20% or 15%

38:39 chance of close. So, that's where I'm

38:41 going to put my focus as a as a sales

38:43 rep because that's where I make my

38:44 money, right? Um, so it really comes

38:46 down to then looking at your week and

38:48 understanding that the, you know, if I

38:51 don't prospect today, it might not bite

38:53 me, but it will in three months. So if I

38:56 let that one day become a whole week

38:58 that I didn't do any prospecting, then

39:00 my money tree dries up and dies in three

39:03 months when my pipeline has nothing left

39:05 in it. So it really comes to like how

39:08 are you managing your time? And if

39:09 you're a full cycle sales rep, I would

39:11 say manage it like it's your own

39:12 business. Take accountability for that

39:15 territory as if you're running that

39:17 business from soup to nuts because then

39:19 you'll start to really connect to, okay,

39:21 where are those weights base

39:22 opportunities? is like imagine that

39:24 you're 100% commission and imagine that

39:27 if you don't do even if it's five calls,

39:31 if that's all you could do that day

39:32 because you're backtoback with a ton of

39:34 other meetings, that's better than zero,

39:36 right? Because we know prospecting is a

39:38 numbers game as well as a quality game.

39:40 So, just look at your calendar, really

39:43 crack down on what your tasks are that

39:46 you need to get done to make sure that

39:47 that revenue generating activity is

39:50 happening. Um, and honestly, I would say

39:53 this happened to me. Talk to your

39:55 manager if you've got a bunch of stuff

39:56 that's pulling you away from those

39:58 revenue generating tasks, i.e. internal

40:01 meetings. This was my exact scenario. I

40:04 was managing a team and I was being

40:06 pulled into all these other internal

40:07 meetings. I was actually flying up to

40:09 Toronto to be with my team. They

40:12 wouldn't even see me the whole week I

40:13 was there. I was in boardrooms. And so,

40:14 I was like, I'm not managing my team.

40:17 Their quota is my quota. I need to be in

40:19 the field with them. Um, and so I had to

40:21 talk to the SVP of sales and say like

40:23 you unless I'm presenting, you can tell

40:26 me what happened in this meeting. Um,

40:28 and I need to free up that time. So

40:31 really get get own your calendar and own

40:34 um, you know, protect the time that you

40:36 need to make those calls because

40:38 otherwise you will just focus on closing

40:40 deals and that's great until there's

40:42 nothing left there to close.

40:43 >> Yeah. Now, from like a manager's

40:45 perspective and looking at that full

40:47 cycle individual, you know, how are

40:50 because obviously you're not going to be

40:51 like, well, don't pay attention to

40:52 closing that deal, make these cold calls

40:54 instead. How are you adjusting maybe

40:56 your perspective? How do you accommodate

40:58 that? I mean, is it just purely looking

41:00 like, all right, they got enough down

41:01 there. I don't mind that they're a

41:03 little like they're trying to close five

41:04 deals. I don't mind that they haven't

41:05 prospected this week. Is it that simple

41:07 or is it a little bit more complex and

41:08 like more to consider? Well, I think it

41:11 would really depend on the rep again,

41:12 like looking at their calendar with them

41:14 and saying like, "Okay, where are you

41:15 finding the time? Where are you

41:17 overwhelmed?" Like, "How can I enable

41:19 you in more ways? Is there something we

41:21 can automate? Is there a system that you

41:23 could use or a program that you could

41:24 use that would help take some of these

41:26 tasks off your, you know, the number one

41:27 thing I hear from everyone is always CRM

41:30 hygiene. Um, you know, like I I would

41:32 prospect more, but the phone numbers are

41:33 all wrong or the accounts are wrong or

41:35 there's a thousand duplicates in

41:36 Salesforce. I know people are twitching

41:37 right now, the trauma. Um, I get it. Um,

41:40 and I understand it's a real problem,

41:42 but you're focused so much on the

41:43 roadblocks that you're not looking at

41:45 the solution. So, I think that's where

41:46 your manager has to come in and help you

41:48 focus as much as possible. And it's

41:50 like, okay, if you're really having

41:51 trouble with that CRM hygiene, and it is

41:53 a a real roadblock into our

41:55 productivity, then let me go find

41:58 solutions um whether that's software or

42:00 whatever um consulting firm to clean it

42:02 up, I AI program, whatever. that should

42:04 be my job to really try to remove that

42:06 roadblock as much as possible so that

42:08 that's no longer the case. But I think,

42:10 you know, as a manager, having seen

42:12 sales reps so many times come up with

42:15 every excuse not to prospect, it does

42:17 come down to, okay, what are you, you

42:19 know, tell me every day, what are you

42:20 doing? What are you spending your time

42:21 on? Um, and let's let's kind of break

42:23 this down because if you're not getting

42:25 those new leads into pipeline, it's a

42:27 balance, right? If you're not having a

42:28 balanced pipeline, then uh unless you're

42:30 get you've got an inbound engine at that

42:33 company that's feeding you those leads

42:35 and they're qualified and they're

42:36 working out, that's the only excuse not

42:38 to prospect. It's you got an inbound

42:40 engine that's going to serve it to you.

42:42 Um but otherwise, if you got to hunt,

42:44 then you better be hunting.

42:45 >> Yeah, I like that a lot of it. The onus

42:47 actually being on the manager to make

42:49 sure that the time is available, not on

42:52 the seller to figure out how to make

42:53 that time available. Obviously, if

42:54 you're the seller in the situation,

42:56 >> you know, take some responsibility,

42:58 manage up, but really at the same time,

43:00 manager needs to go there and if they

43:01 hear any excuses, go solve the excuse

43:03 for why they can't prospect because they

43:05 also have to close the deals. I mean,

43:07 let's realistically,

43:09 we want everyone doing it. There is a

43:11 focus on getting something over the line

43:13 and, you know,

43:14 >> Oh, yeah. Yeah.

43:14 >> No, and and that's I mean, obviously, if

43:16 nothing's closing, that's a bigger

43:18 problem. Um, you know, that that comes

43:19 with a lot of things. Are you taking the

43:21 time to close it? Do you not know how to

43:22 negotiate? Are you getting stuck in

43:24 legal? Are you getting stuck in

43:25 procurement? Like there's so many

43:27 different sections in which we could be

43:28 looking at roadblocks. Or is it that

43:30 you're not qualifying? If you're not

43:32 qualifying your leads right and they

43:34 stall in the mid- pipeline and we cannot

43:35 get them over the line, that's a whole

43:37 other set of issues. So no, that is also

43:39 I mean unless you've got a revops team,

43:41 which you know it must be a dream.

43:43 Again, I worked for startups. We did not

43:44 have all these different roles that were

43:46 responsible for all these different

43:47 things. But if you have a revops team

43:48 that's analyzing your pipeline like that

43:50 and can provide some of that data and

43:51 answers, great. Otherwise, managers step

43:54 up and figure it out.

43:55 >> Yeah. All right, Lisa, we are way over

43:58 time. I really appreciate you taking the

43:59 extra time. I think we could do three

44:01 hours of this conversation and go

44:02 >> I I as a salesperson, I can talk about

44:04 nothing forever. Yeah,

44:06 >> I don't think there's been nothing. Um,

44:07 but I do want to respect your time and

44:09 the upfront contract we had with it. Uh,

44:12 but one last question. If somebody's

44:13 listening in and there's one thing that

44:15 they got to take and apply as an AE to

44:17 their own role, their SDR's their own

44:19 role, like a a manager, um what's that

44:21 one thing they got to, you know, make

44:23 sure that if they heard one thing from

44:24 you, it's this thing.

44:26 >> Yeah. Well, I this is kind of just top

44:29 of mind because we were just talking

44:30 about it, but I would say a really easy

44:32 thing to do is look at your calendar.

44:34 Look at the tasks that are taking up

44:35 time each week. Look at your pipeline.

44:38 How is it balanced? look at those two

44:40 things side by side and really

44:42 recalibrate. What am I prioritizing?

44:44 This is something I personally got have

44:46 gotten wound up in a bunch of times is

44:48 there are tasks that seem urgent that

44:51 really aren't. They're urgent because

44:52 they're in front of your face. It's like

44:54 the same thing as notifications on your

44:55 phone or on your watch or whatever. Like

44:57 they seem urgent because they're in your

44:59 face. Once you sit down and make a list,

45:02 this is everything that I do in a day in

45:04 a workday and this is how many of them

45:06 are revenue generating. Can I talk to

45:08 somebody about alleviating some of these

45:11 other tasks? And is it realistic for us

45:13 to look for a way to actually do that?

45:15 Um, I would say that would be my first

45:17 thing is look at the balance of that

45:18 pipeline and then look at your calendar

45:21 and how can you do better together.

45:24 >> Yeah.

45:24 >> Yeah. And make sure you have create that

45:26 time. Get the bad stuff out of the way

45:28 so you can do the important stuff like

45:29 prospecting.

45:30 >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And make a plan.

45:33 Make a plan. Calendar block. Make a

45:34 plan.

45:35 >> Appreciate it. All right, Lisa. Thank

45:36 you so much for coming on and sharing

45:37 some wisdom with us. There's plenty

45:39 more. I mean, we'll have to have you on

45:41 another time.

45:42 >> Yeah, sounds good.