Kenneth Gumbiner on Value Propositions, ICP, and Sales Playbooks

Transcript

0:02 We have another episode of Tailwind.

0:04 Today we're joined by Ken Gambaner. Uh

0:06 Ken tell us a little more about

0:07 yourself.

0:09 >> Yeah, my background is primarily in

0:11 sales leadership.

0:13 And I've worked uh towards the end of my

0:15 career especially with large Fortune 500

0:18 companies.

0:19 Head of sales for US or North America.

0:23 Um and you know, my wife and I when I

0:25 decided to leave big corporate

0:27 uh we're kicking around what exactly to

0:29 do and I said, you know, I really

0:31 enjoyed

0:33 back at the beginning of my career when

0:34 I was helping small companies to

0:36 succeed, kind of building them up and

0:39 fixing their problems and getting them

0:41 on the right track.

0:42 And I have had a great track record of,

0:45 you know, every one of those companies

0:46 still being in business.

0:48 I said, I'd love to go and help those

0:50 folks because they don't have the tools

0:52 that big corporations do. Yeah. They

0:55 don't have a a marketing department,

0:56 they don't have the ability to do big

0:58 advertisement.

1:00 And so they need that kind of direction,

1:02 sort of that filling that gap between

1:05 how a Fortune 500 company would work and

1:08 how a founder-led organization or a

1:10 small mid-size company would operate.

1:13 But still apply those same principles.

1:16 Yeah. So last um last year um my last

1:20 company I was with was Berkshire

1:21 Hathaway Specialty Insurance.

1:24 And after 4 years of helping them go

1:26 from about 100 million to 500 million

1:29 um I I left with my wife and I started

1:32 K&M Gambaner Sales Consulting.

1:35 Became Sales Acceleration Advisors and

1:38 off we were.

1:39 >> Excellent. So when you're now you're

1:41 returning to work with via smaller

1:44 folks, um what are you noticing like

1:47 some of the bigger mistakes that they're

1:48 making in their prospecting when they're

1:50 trying to generate more business um when

1:52 you started working when you switched

1:53 back to working in that, you know,

1:55 section?

1:55 >> Yeah.

1:56 Yeah, well I think there's there's a lot

1:58 of things. Um, you know, I was I was in

2:00 a meeting

2:02 uh with a with a company It's been a few

2:04 months back and had leadership team.

2:07 And I said to them, you know, as we

2:10 begin this, you know, kind of discovery

2:11 of what's happening, doing assessing

2:13 what's wrong, how do we fix it?

2:16 Let me ask you one of the more critical

2:18 questions and that is, what is your

2:20 value proposition?

2:22 >> Mhm.

2:22 >> What is the problem that you solve for

2:24 the clients that you are looking for?

2:27 And there were five

2:29 folks sitting in the room.

2:31 And they were looking at each other and

2:32 they were like,

2:34 uh we we don't really have a have a

2:36 value proposition.

2:38 >> Mhm.

2:38 >> This is a 50-year-old company.

2:41 And I said, um well, what would you

2:43 guess it would be, you know, if you had

2:45 to just take a shot?

2:47 And they said, well, we are the largest

2:48 in this area of the state.

2:50 I said, [clears throat] that's not

2:51 really a value proposition, right? And

2:54 you [snorts] know, to me, the value

2:56 proposition is something that everyone

2:57 in the organization should be fully

3:00 aware of, conscious of when they're

3:02 talking with the

3:03 clients or prospects, understanding what

3:06 it is we do for them.

3:08 >> Mhm.

3:08 >> And how do we do it?

3:10 Um and so that's really critical. And a

3:11 lot of people don't understand their

3:13 value proposition, much less their

3:15 vision or what their mission is.

3:17 >> Yeah.

3:18 >> And therefore, they don't know what

3:19 their ideal client looks like. And they

3:21 don't know even if they find that

3:23 company that kind of seems like the

3:25 ideal client, who should they be talking

3:27 to? What we call the persona.

3:29 >> Mhm.

3:29 >> Often, it's a CEO, could be the CFO, it

3:32 depends on the service or product that

3:34 they're they're selling. So,

3:36 for me, they just they don't they don't

3:38 necessarily have the key components of a

3:40 roadmap to getting to where they're

3:42 trying to get to. They They don't have a

3:43 plan.

3:45 >> Mhm.

3:45 >> And so, what I have found is to be able

3:47 to go in and start from scratch and say,

3:49 I'm going to build the playbook. Right?

3:52 The methodology, the strategy, the

3:55 process of how you're going to grow your

3:58 business, but even more importantly, and

4:00 often more importantly,

4:02 how you going to grow your profit.

4:04 Because you can grow top line and not

4:06 grow bottom line. You can even have a

4:08 negative effect on the bottom line. So,

4:10 you have to be cognizant of all those

4:11 components. It has to be well thought

4:14 out, and then

4:16 when you exercise that, once you put

4:18 that strategy in the play, you've got to

4:20 have a way of measuring your outcomes

4:23 and identifying where the problems are.

4:26 Um you know, I say to people all the

4:27 time, I especially when they have, you

4:29 know, marketing and sales working

4:31 together, you know, the marketing people

4:33 are pointing at the sales team saying,

4:34 "Well, they're they're not doing their

4:35 job, you know." Sales team's like, "Oh,

4:38 we don't we don't have any good leads."

4:40 Um

4:40 and the reality is neither's

4:43 it's necessarily false or true.

4:47 It could be they just don't know where

4:48 it's broken because they don't have the

4:50 reporting

4:51 system capable of saying, "Here's where

4:53 [clears throat] the problem is. Let's

4:54 fix that, and it'll all work fine."

4:57 And so, you have to have the right

4:59 systems in place,

5:00 and you have to have the right process

5:02 in place to make sure you know what the

5:05 outcomes are going to be.

5:06 And you should be able to measure and

5:08 project exactly what your outcomes are

5:10 going to be, and you shouldn't be

5:11 waiting till the fourth end of the

5:13 quarter to look back and go, "Ah, we

5:14 didn't hit our numbers." You should have

5:16 known you weren't hitting your numbers

5:18 well ahead of time to adjust to make

5:20 sure you hit them.

5:21 >> Yeah.

5:22 Yeah, it sounds like, you know,

5:25 there's there's plenty to be like

5:26 adjusting throughout the entire scope of

5:28 it, but it all starts with that value

5:30 prop, and it it all falls apart if you

5:32 just don't have that figured out. Now,

5:34 this situation, like you had everyone in

5:36 the room together, and you're able to

5:37 ask the direct question,

5:39 and it seemed like, okay,

5:41 they were

5:42 they were being honest and vulnerable

5:44 and willing to admit, okay, that's

5:46 that's fantastic. If I'm a leader

5:48 listening in right now and

5:50 um I'm going well

5:52 well, how can I say confidently I don't

5:54 have this problem with this value prop

5:56 problem? Like is this something where

5:57 it's like I should be able to walk up to

5:59 every single person in my, you know,

6:01 company and ask them and if the second I

6:03 don't hear the right answer

6:05 like stop everything guys, we got to

6:07 start talking about this. Um is it one

6:09 of those things where you know like hey

6:11 maybe we should get all the leaders in

6:12 the room. Like how would you go about

6:14 the self-diagnosis problem of saying

6:16 like

6:17 cuz some people might not be really

6:19 realize like how far they've drifted

6:21 from having that in place.

6:23 >> Right, you know, people especially

6:24 founders, right? They're head down in

6:26 the business working in the business.

6:29 Um often, you know, the the founder is

6:31 the is the lead sales person, right?

6:33 They're the best sales person. They're

6:34 they're on every sales call. They're in

6:36 every meeting

6:38 um and therefore they're not working on

6:40 the business. They're not making sure

6:41 the messaging is there

6:43 that the messaging is reaching all the

6:45 way down to the frontline employees or

6:47 having those conversations.

6:49 Um you know, I I work very closely with

6:52 EOS and EOS implementers.

6:54 Um our, you know, the sales acceleration

6:57 system is a complement to that operating

6:59 system

7:00 >> Mhm.

7:01 >> um in in the sales side of things. And

7:03 so when you look at EOS it's a

7:05 multi-year process to to get

7:08 the the leadership team on track with

7:11 what what their, you know, real

7:13 objectives are and they call

7:16 um they call them rocks, right? And then

7:18 they take that down to the management

7:20 team and take that down all the way to

7:21 the frontline

7:23 to where everybody knows what it's all

7:25 about. Everybody knows what the message

7:27 is and everybody knows how to deliver on

7:29 that. That that can take years to

7:32 develop.

7:33 Um

7:34 on the sales side, you know, we can come

7:36 in and we can build the methodology

7:37 sales process, you know, a playbook.

7:40 It's it's honestly about 100 pages.

7:43 >> Mhm.

7:43 >> Um everything from, you know, what what

7:46 what the job is

7:48 to, you know, if we're going to put an

7:49 ad out, what's it going to look like,

7:51 what's the right candidate look like,

7:53 all the way through the training

7:54 process, and training on the systems,

7:58 getting them implemented into that, and

8:01 getting the whole thing working, right?

8:03 And having everything operational is

8:05 critical,

8:06 but it starts at the top.

8:08 >> Mhm.

8:08 >> Right? And it starts with the founder,

8:10 and when they're headlong in the

8:11 business, right? I I I tell people all

8:13 the time, you know, especially founders,

8:16 you know, if you're working in your

8:17 business, you're not working on your

8:18 business.

8:19 >> Mhm.

8:20 >> And my job is to help you start working

8:22 on your business, to focus on the bigger

8:24 picture things, the vision, the mission,

8:26 the value proposition,

8:28 and to get that messaging in place.

8:32 >> Yeah.

8:33 Yeah, so would you say that like as that

8:35 founder is working on the business, is

8:37 it is it something where, hey, create

8:40 that value prop, or if you don't have

8:41 it, now's the time to build it, and

8:42 start implementing it, and disseminating

8:44 it. Um would you say that they they need

8:46 to continually be listening to market

8:48 feedback to see if they need to change

8:50 that value prop, or would that say like,

8:51 hey, keep that thing the same, but maybe

8:53 the messaging on how you frame it in the

8:55 market evolves because the market's

8:58 evolving, and your value prop still

8:59 stays the same, but how you express that

9:02 maybe is what um

9:04 evolves with the marketplace.

9:05 >> Yeah, you know, it's critically

9:07 important, right? If you don't if

9:09 what you really have to ask yourself,

9:11 and when people often ask me, you know,

9:14 "What do you do?"

9:15 I often say, "Well, let me tell you why

9:16 I do what I do first, right?"

9:19 Um let me tell you my why, uh Simon

9:21 Sinek, right? Um and I love that

9:24 because, you know, what I'm doing today,

9:26 I do because I loved it my life. This is

9:29 what made me happy. It wasn't

9:31 necessarily what made me the most money,

9:33 or, you know, got me to the the know,

9:35 travel and stay, you know, wine and dine

9:38 people. It wasn't about that, right? So,

9:41 when I had the opportunity to form my

9:42 own company, I said, "I want to do the

9:43 thing I love." And that's what often

9:46 founders do, right? They find something

9:47 they love, find something they're really

9:50 adamant about, and then they go after

9:52 it.

9:53 And you have to ask yourself, "What's

9:55 our why?" Right? As a company, why do we

9:57 do what we do?

9:59 And usually it comes along uh the lines

10:01 of serving somebody in a positive way,

10:04 helping them

10:05 >> Mhm.

10:05 >> through a problem, through a difficulty,

10:07 whether you're providing a service or a

10:08 product. And so, the question always is,

10:13 "Does that problem exist? And what form

10:15 does that problem take? And how do we

10:18 fix that problem, right?"

10:20 So, you know, it if you don't understand

10:22 that, and you don't and you're not sure

10:24 that it's relevant today, right? There

10:26 are things that are not relevant

10:28 anymore.

10:29 Uh nobody's got a problem with their

10:31 landline phone.

10:32 >> Yeah.

10:33 >> We don't have them anymore, right? Uh

10:35 nobody's got a problem finding a

10:36 telephone booth. We don't have them

10:38 anymore. If they If they exist, it's

10:40 rare, maybe at a bus stop.

10:42 Um so, you know, if you find yourself

10:44 shifting businesses, you got to you got

10:46 to make a strategy decision.

10:48 >> Mhm.

10:49 >> But, most of the time, right? That

10:51 product is still relevant, that problem

10:53 still exists. It may have taken on a

10:55 different form today in AI,

10:57 you know, with AI, the advent of AI, you

10:59 have a lot of companies that are still

11:01 delivering old-school product and

11:04 haven't incorporated any kind of AI

11:06 functionality into it, and they're

11:08 getting left behind, right? Um I was

11:10 talking to one business owner,

11:13 and they were doing really they were

11:14 really successful. They had their whole

11:16 process and strategy down.

11:18 And they were out [clears throat] there

11:19 on Google, and they were

11:21 hitting the algorithms, and lots of

11:23 opportunities coming their way.

11:25 Google changed their algorithm,

11:27 and all of a sudden it stopped.

11:29 And they didn't have any way to identify

11:31 where it was broken.

11:33 Right? Cuz they didn't have that that

11:34 process, they didn't have the systems to

11:36 say, "Here's where it's broken." How do

11:39 you fix it? You don't know. Cuz it's

11:41 kind of like your car is making a noise,

11:43 you take it to the mechanic, now it's

11:45 not making a noise. You don't know. It's

11:46 It's just a guess.

11:48 >> Yeah.

11:48 >> You can't guess about these things,

11:50 right? Your future depends on it, the

11:51 company depends on it, the employees

11:53 depend on it.

11:54 So, you have to be able to make a very

11:57 strategic decision at that point. How

12:00 are we going to engage and continue to

12:03 have a solution that's viable today?

12:07 Um and so, because you know, you and

12:09 once you understand your your value

12:11 proposition, your mission, your vision,

12:13 you know that's relevant to today's

12:14 marketplace,

12:16 then you have to define who is our

12:18 client.

12:19 >> Mhm.

12:19 >> Right? And what is you know, how do we

12:21 solve that problem for them? How do we

12:24 help them identify it?

12:25 >> Yeah.

12:26 I mean, would you almost say that like

12:28 if your value prop is changing you like

12:32 too often, then it's clearly not a

12:34 strong enough value prop that you need

12:35 to go deeper into it. Cuz when you're

12:37 talking about like the the public phones

12:39 and stuff, I remember I was in a

12:41 classroom and uh they were saying like,

12:43 "Hey, like here's an easy one to think

12:45 of. There used to be companies that

12:47 delivered ice to people's

12:50 houses because they would put them in

12:51 their cooler box and then refrigerators

12:53 came along and ice companies like,

12:55 "Well, we're not in the business of

12:56 refrigerators, we're in the business of

12:57 ice." And it's like, "You're in the

12:58 business of preserving food."

13:00 >> Right.

13:01 >> is the next advancement. Your value prop

13:03 has not changed. The solution has

13:05 evolved. And so, if you find yourself

13:07 saying to yourself, "Hey, our value prop

13:10 is shifting too much." It's like, then

13:11 you don't have a deep enough

13:12 foundational one.

13:14 That's a big red flag to start

13:16 reconsidering that because while the

13:18 delivery of the value might change from

13:20 time to time, the value itself has got

13:22 to be

13:24 more more resistant to change. But maybe

13:27 you know, maybe it evolves some. Maybe

13:28 you can make some adjustments, but it

13:30 shouldn't be like this every 6 months.

13:33 How do we reconsider it like part of

13:34 your solution design?

13:36 >> Exactly. I mean, you know, you we'll use

13:38 the phone company example again because,

13:40 you know, when you look at what a phone

13:41 company is, it's not really about a

13:42 phone.

13:43 >> Yeah.

13:43 >> It's communication. They're

13:44 communication company.

13:46 Um many of those companies, those

13:48 smaller uh companies, became internet

13:50 companies.

13:51 >> Mhm.

13:52 >> Right? And they they went on to have

13:53 very a great deal of success when the

13:55 internet was developed. Obviously, they

13:57 went on, you know, broadband and all

13:59 that exists since today we've got

14:00 satellite, right?

14:02 >> Yeah.

14:02 >> But those companies evolved. And, you

14:04 know, I um

14:06 the the chairman of GE uh once said, you

14:09 know, change before you have to because

14:12 if you wait until you have to, it's too

14:13 late.

14:14 Right?

14:15 Um so, you always have to have an eye on

14:17 what's happening in the industry. You

14:19 have to have a a finger on the market

14:20 and know what's happening. You have to

14:22 be watching technology to know what's

14:24 happening to make sure that you're

14:26 relevant. But as once you make that

14:28 decision, stay with it, right?

14:30 Understand the broader picture. We're

14:31 not a phone company. We're communication

14:33 company.

14:34 >> Yeah.

14:35 >> Right? And those problems can be even

14:36 broader. You can identify other things

14:38 you can offer in terms of product for

14:40 solutions

14:42 and then target those.

14:44 >> So, you you've talked about like you

14:45 have a you know, you come in you built a

14:47 100-page playbook to really cover the

14:49 fullness of this. How are you

14:52 practically applying the value prop to

14:54 make sure that that stays consistent

14:56 throughout all 100 pages? Are you 97

15:00 pages 110 pages? Like the page count

15:02 doesn't really matter, but that's a very

15:03 big

15:04 like thing that's going to be your

15:05 through line. How are you making sure

15:07 that you're keeping the value prop

15:09 central central to exactly how

15:11 everything's being built, I suppose.

15:12 >> Well,

15:13 you know, that has to be your starting

15:14 point, right? Cuz everything else builds

15:16 from the value prop mission and vision.

15:19 Um and then, you know, you to understand

15:21 what your solutions and what problems

15:23 they solve are. And then you have to

15:24 understand your client. I might talk to

15:27 a lot of people and say, "You know,

15:28 what's your ideal client profile?" And

15:30 they're like, "Anybody that will pay

15:31 me."

15:32 >> [laughter]

15:33 >> No, it's not, right? Cuz you're going to

15:35 spend a lot of time talking to people

15:37 who are never going to pay you.

15:39 Right? You have to really whittle that

15:41 down and understand exactly who you can

15:43 serve the best and who's going to make

15:46 the most sense.

15:47 And then beyond that, you have to

15:48 identify their persona. And it all fits

15:51 into that starting structure, the value

15:53 proposition. Right? You know, if if I'm

15:55 selling a SaaS product that's going to

15:57 change the way an organization is run,

16:00 yeah, I can talk to the head of IT. I

16:02 can talk to the

16:03 IT manager or the the kid they hired for

16:06 IT, right? Um

16:09 but he may not be open to that change.

16:11 However, the CEO is going to see it

16:13 differently. So, the person I want to

16:16 talk to in that case is the CEO.

16:18 Um because he's not making decisions on,

16:20 "Well, this is going to be more work for

16:22 me or this is I'm going to have to

16:24 replace somebody that's a buddy of

16:25 mine." It's this is what's right for the

16:27 organization to move forward. So, you

16:30 build your client profile, you build

16:32 that persona, and then you target those

16:34 people. And there's various ways you're

16:35 going to target them depending on what

16:37 the business is.

16:39 And you try to find them at the right

16:41 place at the right time. And then you

16:44 have an opportunity to serve them.

16:47 >> So, for that I couldn't agree more about

16:49 the the ICP definition. Um the What are

16:52 your thoughts on

16:54 you know, somebody comes stumbling in

16:56 and like for whatever reasons like I

16:58 still want to buy a SaaS product or

16:59 whatever. I mean, are you pretty much

17:01 like, "All right, that's fine. Don't put

17:03 effort into tracking those people down,

17:04 but it's fine if they want to intro like

17:06 walk themselves in the door." Or would

17:08 you even say go as far as like, "You

17:09 know what? It's actually going to be

17:10 detrimental long term to take people in

17:13 that are outside your ICP."

17:15 >> Yeah, listen, you can definitely have

17:17 the wrong clients, right? Um and you

17:19 know, I years ago I had a a guy called

17:23 me. He was the CEO of a company. I knew

17:24 him and knew his business.

17:26 He said, "Hey, I'm having trouble. I'm

17:28 struggling." He said, "I'd really love

17:29 you to take a look at what I'm doing."

17:31 I said, "Fine, happy to do it."

17:34 So I got, you know, got together with

17:36 him, started looking over everything and

17:37 I said, "Well, here's a problem. Your

17:39 largest client is costing you money."

17:43 >> Oh, sure.

17:44 >> Right?

17:44 It you know, it cost you, you know, $15

17:47 per employee per month to have this

17:50 client and you're charging them $10.

17:53 Right?

17:54 >> Yeah.

17:54 >> So you're literally losing money. You

17:56 can start making money tomorrow, but

17:58 you're going to fire this client.

18:00 >> Mhm.

18:00 >> He couldn't do it. He couldn't do it. He

18:02 said, "Oh, I can't do it." I said,

18:03 "Well, you can't not do it."

18:05 He said, "Well, I might have to lay

18:06 somebody off." I said, "Well, you know,

18:07 this is the business, right?" You have

18:10 to make a business decision. You have to

18:12 do what's right for the company.

18:14 You got to replace them. Either you walk

18:15 in there and say, "Look, I've got to

18:17 raise your rate

18:18 because I'm not making any money."

18:20 >> Yeah.

18:20 >> And they're going to like you well

18:21 enough to give you that rate increase

18:23 and frankly, you should be bold enough

18:24 to ask for it. You should be doing a

18:25 good enough job where you can get that

18:27 rate increase.

18:29 Or you got to walk away and you have to

18:31 deal with that and go find a client you

18:32 can make money on.

18:34 >> Mhm.

18:34 >> And so, you know, having the wrong

18:36 client sometimes requires you to let

18:38 that client go for the better you know,

18:41 outcome of the company.

18:42 >> Yeah.

18:43 >> And you know, and so you you got to make

18:45 sure you're constantly developing new

18:47 opportunity. You can't rely on the

18:49 business you have. It can go bad. It can

18:51 get acquired.

18:53 You know, I talked to another, you know,

18:54 business owner the other day

18:56 and said, "We've got 97% retention, but

18:58 we aren't writing any new business."

19:00 >> Mhm.

19:01 >> And they weren't they weren't very

19:02 concerned about it. I said, "Well,

19:03 someday you're going to lose a big

19:04 client. What's your plan?"

19:07 >> Yeah.

19:07 >> Um if you don't have a plan,

19:09 you're going to be stuck.

19:11 Right? Because when you lose that

19:12 client, it's not the time to start a

19:14 plan. Right? You need that plan, that

19:15 strategy in place.

19:17 And again, if you've got the whole sales

19:19 process built and running constantly,

19:22 you may not be super active in it. It

19:24 could be sort of passive even.

19:26 Um you know, if you've got, for

19:28 instance, your CRMs connected to your

19:30 internet, you're putting out the post

19:31 every week that you're supposed to on

19:33 LinkedIn, if that's the method you're

19:34 going after,

19:36 you're out on YouTube, whatever. Just

19:38 things you do regardless of where your

19:40 business is, that's going to bring those

19:43 inquiries in and let you be selective

19:45 about adding new clients, providing that

19:48 growth, so that you aren't missing out

19:50 on that opportunity and waiting for the

19:52 the client to cancel on you and then

19:54 you're stuck. Right?

19:56 >> Yeah. So,

19:58 find the drift a little bit, but you

19:59 need to be have a discerning eye at all

20:01 times about the clients that are coming

20:03 in the door. And sure, maybe they didn't

20:05 weren't that right down the middle ICP

20:07 at the time. As long as they're not

20:09 breaking your model somehow,

20:11 >> Right.

20:11 >> very intentional about it, it's okay.

20:14 >> Right.

20:14 >> You know, as you start shifting to a

20:17 founder being somebody who's working on

20:18 the business and not in the business,

20:21 you know, I would imagine, you know, in

20:22 that situation, when you're in the

20:24 business, like you're kind of always you

20:26 got your finger on the pulse directly of

20:27 like the prospecting and the what you're

20:30 hearing in the field and like your own

20:32 maybe your own sales calls, your own

20:33 interactions with that. But then as

20:35 you're trans- transitioning into on, how

20:38 would you recommend, you know, keeping

20:40 the the pulse on what the the market's

20:43 telling back to your company, whether

20:44 that be staying in those sales

20:46 conversations or setting up reporting or

20:49 opening channels of communication, like

20:51 how are you making sure you're not

20:52 losing touch with what is being fed back

20:54 to your company?

20:56 >> Well, there there's a variety of ways.

20:57 One One thing I I strongly recommend is

20:59 people be involved in some way in a in

21:02 an organization that is has a pulse.

21:05 Right? That

21:06 you know, if I I'm, you know, for

21:08 instance, my background was in health

21:09 care and employee benefits.

21:11 Um I'm a part of an organization called

21:13 the Indy Healthcare Table. It's got

21:15 multiple people involved in that

21:17 industry. I I see them all the time. We

21:20 have regular meetings.

21:22 We talk about what's happening in the

21:23 industry. So, I can keep an eye out if

21:26 something new is coming along, I become

21:28 aware. If I'm head down in the business,

21:30 right? I'm not paying attention to that.

21:33 Something new comes along and next thing

21:34 you know, my business has shifted. Um

21:37 so, that's one thing. The other thing is

21:39 you know, just watching, you know, you

21:41 should have constant development. You

21:43 should have If you're doing what you're

21:45 supposed to be in terms of methodology,

21:47 strategy, and process, then it will

21:50 show, right? You will see the numbers.

21:52 You'll see the contacts. You'll see the

21:54 inquiries. You'll see the outreaches.

21:57 And being able to track those and you

21:59 can you know, I put a warning system

22:01 like so I typically I'll I'm involved in

22:04 building a CRM, right? Building a tech

22:07 stack around that. So, whether we're

22:09 doing cold outreach, which I highly

22:10 recommend. It's not the best, right? But

22:12 you still it's it's a touchpoint. Even

22:15 if it's somebody reaching top of mind

22:17 with you. You they see an email, they

22:19 forget about it, and then next thing you

22:21 know, they got a problem and they

22:22 remember it. Or they see you on LinkedIn

22:24 and now they're having that problem.

22:27 Um and you know, that's what's important

22:29 is that you reach people at the right

22:31 time.

22:32 Um but having your pulse on both

22:35 internally what's happening.

22:37 I recommend also that you you regularly

22:40 take a poll of your clients. Ask them

22:43 how you're doing. Um and take a look at

22:45 what they're saying and address those

22:47 issues. You want to make sure you're

22:48 getting the A across the board. And if

22:51 you're not, you need to be working on

22:52 that.

22:53 So, sometimes that feedback from your

22:55 clients it doesn't get asked for, it

22:57 doesn't get provided, and you don't

22:58 know.

22:59 >> Yeah.

23:00 >> But you can also see it just in if

23:02 people become disinterested in what

23:04 you're doing and that's going to show up

23:05 in those numbers.

23:07 >> Yeah. I had a a vendor that we almost

23:09 left because I thought they didn't have

23:13 what we needed for some of our technical

23:14 requirements.

23:16 And like they got this close to fumbling

23:18 us because they didn't actually like

23:20 touch base and like make sure and like a

23:22 a true effort. And when I finally were

23:24 able to connect and then I was like,

23:25 "Well, here's all the stuff." And

23:26 they're like, "Oh, well, we we help with

23:28 all of that." And we're like,

23:29 >> Right.

23:30 >> almost 6 months ago. Like we should have

23:31 gotten us on the same page. You almost

23:33 lost us. And only because we were a

23:34 little proactive on our side did we

23:36 stick around. But um you know, if they'd

23:38 sent us like a a questionnaire and then

23:41 been able to gather that data, it would

23:43 have made it lots smoother um there.

23:45 Um happy that we were able to figure it

23:47 out. But I mean, that's that's a

23:48 testament that I just experienced this

23:51 week of

23:52 somebody not keeping that pulse on on

23:54 what's happening.

23:55 >> Yeah, you see companies are really good

23:57 at it, you know, and they you get a

23:58 follow-up email, please take this or

24:00 even offer you lunch or something.

24:02 >> Yeah.

24:02 >> Um and you see companies that never do

24:04 it. And you know, it should be a part of

24:07 that process.

24:08 >> Mhm.

24:09 >> Right. If it's not, then you're you're

24:10 going to struggle at some point.

24:12 >> Yeah.

24:12 >> And you're not going to be sure

24:13 [clears throat] why.

24:14 >> Yeah.

24:15 And then you know, you were mentioning

24:16 like um having the metrics in place

24:19 uh to be able to monitor that. Um and so

24:22 I imagine that there's like minimum

24:24 thresholds that tell you if we don't

24:26 have x amount of inquiries or x amount

24:28 of this or pipeline numbers are this,

24:31 this is what's wrong. I'm sure you put a

24:32 very intentional thing. Do you have like

24:35 a specific action plan for each metric

24:37 where it goes above this, below this,

24:39 this is the first person you talk to.

24:40 What does that What does that look like

24:42 in terms of

24:43 who I have a bunch of metrics

24:45 now what?

24:45 >> Yeah.

24:46 Yeah, and also it's depending on the

24:48 size of the sales team, too, right? You

24:50 know, you might have a couple sales

24:51 people doing really well. And maybe it's

24:53 just they're hitting a good they're in a

24:55 good stride. And some that are

24:56 struggling and you need to be able to

24:58 identify why they're struggling, right?

25:00 What's allowing this one to succeed and

25:02 this one's struggling?

25:04 And you look at those metrics, right?

25:05 The reporting metrics will tell you

25:07 how many opportunities are coming in,

25:09 what kinds of opportunities? Are they

25:11 cold? Are they warm?

25:13 Um how are they developing? You know,

25:15 one of the unique tools, I think, is um

25:19 Knowledgenet. Knowledgenet does

25:20 something a lot of

25:22 programs don't. Now, I use Apollo, I use

25:24 Seamless.

25:25 >> Mhm.

25:25 >> And what Knowledgenet does is when you

25:27 have a prospect and you can tell they're

25:30 your ideal client profile, they're the

25:31 right persona, they fit the model.

25:34 You're not sure where they they sit in

25:35 terms of do they know they have a

25:37 problem or or

25:39 are they even aware of it,

25:41 but you want to reach them.

25:42 Uh what Knowledgenet does is now it

25:44 identifies the people you both know in

25:46 common, right? And then which one of

25:49 those people would be best to recommend

25:51 you to them? Then you reach out to that

25:54 person, not them directly, and you reach

25:55 out to that person say, "Hey, would you

25:57 introduce me

25:58 to Joe Smith at ABC?"

26:00 Absolutely. Here's a little bio about

26:02 what we do. Just shoot it to him, see if

26:05 if there's interest. And now Joe Smith

26:07 is reaching out to me directly, right?

26:10 That's an amazing opportunity compared

26:13 to cold calling,

26:15 cold email. You do it all, right? And

26:18 you track the numbers, and when the

26:20 numbers change on any one of those

26:21 subsets,

26:23 you have to make sure that your

26:24 messaging is on point. But you want the

26:28 the cold calling, you want the warm

26:29 calling, you want that referral

26:32 business, which is often going to be

26:34 through networking. You got to have all

26:36 those pieces, and then you have to track

26:37 all the statistics, and your CRM's

26:39 capable of doing that if you build it

26:41 correctly.

26:42 >> Yeah.

26:43 Yeah, so a lot have it mapped out.

26:46 That makes a lot of sense. Have it

26:47 mapped out, know what your response is.

26:50 Be ready to go the second something

26:51 dips, you know, to be activated to go,

26:53 you know, focus there, identify the

26:55 issue, um and then be able to move

26:58 forward from that. I You know, you would

27:00 talk about I didn't I think everyone

27:02 kind of would be on the same page like

27:03 referral is much more valuable or is

27:06 higher higher likelihood to close a deal

27:09 than cold calling.

27:11 >> Exactly.

27:11 >> keep saying, you know, keep cold

27:13 calling. I agree with that. Uh what's

27:15 your rationale specifically of saying,

27:17 "Cool. Like your network is great.

27:19 Definitely keep using them. However, you

27:22 don't get to just lean on that. You

27:23 cannot ignore the value of the cold call

27:25 or the cold outreach."

27:27 Um what would you say is the the big

27:29 reason that you can't walk away from

27:30 that?

27:31 >> Well, for one today, you know, with

27:33 systems like Apollo, right? As an

27:35 example, instantly

27:37 you can build that cold outreach and it

27:40 runs in the background.

27:42 >> Yeah.

27:42 >> Right? Once it's built, it just is

27:44 self-sustaining.

27:46 The other thing is unique about it is it

27:48 can identify buyer intent.

27:50 >> Mhm.

27:50 >> Right? And that's something you you

27:52 don't know about even a warm referral

27:54 prospect.

27:55 >> Yeah.

27:55 >> Right? You don't know what their intent

27:57 is. You don't know if they have a need

27:58 for you.

27:59 But when somebody's searching the

28:00 internet and saying, "Hey, I'm I'm

28:02 having issues with my revenue or I'm

28:04 having issues with my bottom line. How

28:06 do I solve this sales problem?" Boom,

28:08 they pop up in Apollo because they've

28:10 shown an intent.

28:12 >> Yeah.

28:12 >> And then they become a pretty pretty

28:15 good lead. Right? And there are four

28:17 buckets. There's people who are not

28:19 aware they have a problem. There are

28:20 people who are aware they have a

28:22 problem,

28:24 don't know if there's a solution. There

28:25 are people who know there's a solution

28:27 or not sure what it is.

28:28 And there's people who know there's a

28:30 solution and pretty much targeted on

28:31 what one it is.

28:32 >> Mhm.

28:33 >> Our your objective is always to find

28:35 people in those middle two buckets,

28:36 right? Or right in between.

28:38 They know they have a problem. They're

28:40 They think there's a solution, but

28:41 they're not sure what it is.

28:43 And now you connect with them. They've

28:45 shown intent on the internet. And so

28:47 while it is cold calling, it's optimized

28:50 through AI today to identify those

28:52 people who fit your profile. You're

28:54 putting in what your ideal client

28:56 profile and personas are. It's tracking

28:58 those people. It's tracking 350 million

29:01 people and saying someone just reached

29:04 out into the internet in one way or

29:05 another,

29:06 >> Yeah.

29:06 >> showed intent, they need some help with

29:08 sales,

29:10 follow up. Now, I can go to KnowledgeNet

29:13 and find the person to connect me to

29:15 that person, right?

29:16 >> Mhm.

29:16 >> But it that cold outreach may be the

29:18 thing that gets him. They get that email

29:20 on the right day and the right moment,

29:22 and they're like, "That's exactly what

29:23 I'm looking for."

29:24 And they just reached out, you know,

29:26 they they connect for 15 minutes and we

29:27 have that conversation. So,

29:30 once you build it, it's self-sustaining.

29:32 It needs a little tuning up here now and

29:33 then, but it's not a lot of work once

29:36 it's done. So, why wouldn't you have

29:38 that outreach?

29:39 >> Yeah. Yeah, and you know,

29:41 you know, to your point on the intent,

29:43 like yes, if you can find them on

29:44 KnowledgeNet, perfect. But there's

29:47 I don't know that many people, so it's a

29:49 high likelihood that that's a

29:50 conversation I wouldn't otherwise be

29:52 able to have, and I can only have it

29:54 because I'm, you know, doing something

29:56 that, yes, technically is going to have

29:58 a lower chance for success,

30:01 you know, what is what Gretzky say? You

30:03 miss 100% 100% of the shots you don't

30:05 take.

30:06 >> Exactly.

30:07 >> You've got it figured out and it's

30:08 smooth, you may as well take the shot,

30:10 and no big deal if you if you don't hit

30:12 that goal.

30:14 >> Absolutely.

30:14 >> Yeah.

30:15 >> Absolutely.

30:16 >> Well, we're we're running up on time,

30:17 and I really appreciate I want to

30:18 respect your schedule though. Uh but

30:20 before I let you go, I got to ask if if

30:22 somebody's listening in, you know,

30:23 what's the one big takeaway that, you

30:26 know, if they can only remember one

30:27 thing, if they're only going to apply

30:28 one thing to their business, like,

30:30 please remember this thing from Ken and

30:32 apply it.

30:34 >> Yeah, um I think it's important that

30:38 founders understand how important it is

30:40 or or or presence of companies, small to

30:43 mid-size companies, it's super important

30:46 that you realize your job is to step

30:48 away

30:49 and be able to get taken overview of the

30:51 company and work on that company

30:53 strategically. If you're involved in

30:56 day-to-day process, if you're the main

30:58 person in sales, if you don't have a

31:00 process, a methodology, a strategy

31:02 already built,

31:03 if you don't have systems in place to do

31:05 these things for you automatically,

31:08 you know, that's that's where you have

31:10 to to take a look harder at what I'm

31:12 doing. You know, whether you connect

31:14 with me or somebody else, you know, in

31:16 sales acceleration or another coach or

31:18 advisor, you know, I recommend you to do

31:21 you look at that problem and say, "Hey,

31:22 how do I build this playbook?" Whether

31:24 you build it yourself,

31:26 that can be, you know, hard, but

31:29 you know, that's what we do. We help We

31:31 help those organizations build that

31:33 playbook, guide them and direct them,

31:36 build a team if they need to, even

31:37 manage those teams for a period of time

31:40 until they get running.

31:41 Um and then we're able to step away and

31:43 now we leave the CEO, the founder, the

31:45 president in a position of run the

31:48 company from an overview perspective and

31:51 not day-to-day.

31:52 >> Yeah.

31:53 So, I mean, if you find yourself unable

31:55 to pull yourself from in to work on,

31:58 talk to Ken. He'll help you with that

32:00 process. He'll make you feel comfortable

32:01 with it. He knows the way.

32:03 >> Exactly.

32:04 >> Awesome. All right, Ken, I really

32:05 appreciate it. Uh thank you for coming

32:07 on the podcast today.

32:08 >> Thank you. Appreciate you having me.