14. James Alberson ~ Sandler Training Seattle
Episode Notes
Key moments from this episode
James Alberson joins Tailwind for a practical conversation about phone prospecting: why newer sellers often hide behind email, how mindset, behavior, and technique shape cold call success, why disarming honesty can release pressure at the start of a call, how live conversations build rapport faster than email chains, and why sellers should build multiple prospecting channels instead of relying on one outreach motion.
Takeaways
- Phone prospecting gets easier when sellers stop trying to create a need and focus on finding whether a real need exists.
- Mindset, behavior, and technique all matter: sellers need supportive beliefs, reasonable time blocks, and practiced talk tracks.
- A live call can replace long email chains, create rapport faster, and clarify whether a conversation is worth continuing.
- Disarming honesty lowers pressure because the prospect knows the seller is not pretending the cold call is something else.
- Healthy outbound motions use multiple channels, including phone calls, networking, recapture calls, speaking opportunities, and LinkedIn.
Key Moments
- 1:27
Why sellers avoid the phone
James describes the generational tendency he sees toward avoiding voice-to-voice contact and relying on email instead.
- 3:14
Mindset, behavior, and technique
The conversation frames prospecting through the Sandler success triangle: mindset, behavior, and technique all have to support the call.
- 3:50
Find the need instead of forcing one
James reframes cold calls as finding whether a need exists rather than creating pressure by trying to convince someone.
- 4:51
Build reasonable prospecting blocks
James warns against unrealistic call blocks and recommends building a manageable weekly rhythm sellers can actually keep.
- 6:36
A phone call beats the email chain
James shows how to compare email back-and-forth against the information a seller could have learned in a brief live conversation.
- 10:07
Rapport changes belief
Austin and James connect phone conversations to faster rapport, better information, and a healthier belief system around outreach.
- 13:43
Disarming honesty opens the call
James shares the low-pressure opening of naming the cold call and letting the prospect decide whether a conversation is useful.
- 18:50
Strive for five channels
James broadens the prospecting motion beyond the phone with networking, recapture calls, speaking opportunities, LinkedIn, and other channels.
- 24:05
Who needs what you sell
James closes by reframing prospecting as an ethical obligation to find out who may actually need what the seller offers.
Transcript
0:00 All right, we've got another episode of Tailwind. Today we're joined by James Albertson. I said that right. Correct.
0:10 >> Should ask that before. >> Thank you for not putting a T in that in that.
0:14 >> Uh my sister went to Albertson's University. So, I'm glad that I could at this time. Um yeah. Uh James, tell us a little bit more about yourself.
0:23 >> Uh well, you know, I'll keep it keep it brief. Uh I've uh been a Sandler uh franchise owner for uh 16 years now and
0:32 I'm in the uh the greater Seattle metropolitan area particular in particular in Reon Washington which is the best city in the whole region. Uh
0:41 but uh formerly uh about 20 years of sales, sales management that sort of thing in the medical um medical field,
0:50 medical arena, pharma, biotech devices, equipment, diagnostics, that sort of thing. and >> nice.
0:55 >> Then moved into uh Sandler Sandler ownership and been enjoying the ride ever since.
1:01 >> Yeah. 16 good years, I I assume. >> Well, you know, good is a relative term.
1:06 You know, I'll tell anybody when you when you start your own business, uh whether you started from scratch or buy a franchise, you you never sleep the
1:13 same when somebody stops sending you a paycheck. So, we'll we'll we'll say they've been uh they haven't beat me.
1:19 The years haven't beat me down yet. Let's say that. Well, I'm early in my new business stage, so I know exactly the feeling that you're talking about.
1:27 >> I bet you do. I bet you do. >> So, before we hit the record button, you know, we're talking a little bit about the generational gap in prospecting
1:34 outreach that or just prospecting in general that you've noticed. I'd love to just hear a little bit more about what you're seeing at this point in time.
1:41 >> Well, you know, what I'm seeing is probably what a lot of people are are seeing and experiencing. And when I say a lot of people, they could be trainers
1:48 or coaches. uh but more specifically um sales leaders, managers that uh may be in the uh maybe the Gen X generation as
2:00 uh as I am or even you know the early uh millennials um and that behavior what they're seeing is the propensity to
2:12 avoid the phone like the plague to avoid voiceto contact even um a a a inface
2:21 Zoom meeting or Teams meeting and that sort of thing from the prospecting standpoint, you know, talking to a stranger. Why on earth would you do that
2:29 when I can just so conveniently send an email? I mean, it's it's it's so that's less intrusive or or heaven forbid text.
2:38 I mean, I I hope nobody's prospecting via text, but you never know. So that's what I see is just that that reticence to that reticence to uh uh get on the
2:49 phone uh and like I say create a conversation out of thin air. That's a big that's a big struggle for folks.
2:57 >> Yeah. So when you're addressing that, what are some of the strategies you're applying to get over that reticence that you're running into? you know, part of
3:06 it is, you know, to to to steal an old Nike phrase, just do it.
3:14 >> But but overall, >> part of, you know, it's as we talked about with Sandler >> and that, you know, the success triangle, anything you're trying to do,
3:24 any endeavor you undertake, you know, there's the mindset you bring in uh into the to the matter. there's the uh the behavior that you uh exhibit, you know,
3:34 the goals you put in place, how are you structured so that you do this? And then of course, once you do it, when you execute, there's a technique. How well
3:41 are you going to do that? And this is an example where all three of those things, you know, truly converge. Uh you know, you have to fight the head trash. The
3:50 first thing in the mindset, you have to fight the head trash that you're bothering somebody. you know, uh, when I talk about prospecting and teach prospecting, the first thing is, you
4:01 know, you put too much pressure on ourselves because you come in trying to create a problem. And I I keep it simple. You come in trying to shoot a
4:09 hole in their boat versus find a hole in their boat. If you can't find a hole in their boat, then hey, you move on. But if you're trying to shoot a hole in
4:18 their boat, you know, now that's a lot of pressure. I got to convince them. I got to find a reason. But when I change that paradigm and I just say, "Hey,
4:25 listen. I know if they need me or not, >> you know, let me let me just and if I have the right 30 second commercial and if I, you know, come across not like
4:34 this saleserson, this sales vulture that's trying to convince them by hook or by crook to do this, then everything will be okay. Either I'll start a
4:42 conversation or I won't. So there's the mindset, the behavior, >> you know, I mean, it's simple. you go back to, you know, are you getting ready
4:51 to get ready or you do you just time block? Do you say, "Yeah, I'm going to do it now."
4:56 >> But you can't overshoot the mark. You can't say, "Okay, I'm going to uh uh uh co call for four hours a day, Monday
5:06 through Friday, unless your boss tells you that's the that's what you're supposed to do, and you probably shouldn't have accepted that job. You can't do it." Uh but it's like somebody
5:14 at the beginning of the year saying, "You know what? my New Year's resolution. I'm gonna get in shape. Uh I'm going to the gym every day Monday through Friday. You're gonna go
5:24 from zero to 60. No. No, you can't do that. And with prospecting, uh you know, maybe if you have a problem, then at least, you know, I'm
5:34 going to start with two hours a week or I'm going to start with, you know, the hour on Monday, hour on Wednesday. But make it reasonable and so you can so
5:43 that drives your behavior. And then, you know, really at the at the center of it, you what's your message? What are you going to say, you know, and and and
5:52 practice that and practice and practice so they become second nature? And um and and then then go for it. I mean, you know, it's it's easier said than done,
6:02 but when you put all those things in place, I think you have a better chance of succeeding than just, you know, picking up the phone saying, "Hi, I'm
6:11 I'm wondering if maybe if possibly if you I wonder if you like to talk to me."
6:16 That's going to go nowhere. >> Yeah, definitely. Now, when it comes to like the impact difference between, you know, I'm gonna email or text somebody
6:23 and then picking up the phone, like how are you measuring that? you know, how are you showing that to your clients as they're re working through that to
6:30 understand that it really is going to make a difference to pick up the phone instead of hide behind an email?
6:36 >> Yeah. you know, I mean, you know, you just kind of look at the the the metrics and and one of the things I I've done uh with particular client uh working with,
6:45 you know, is is take uh a a time period of um of email communication, >> you know, and and you know, whether it
6:55 be okay two weeks or whatever. Okay, how many were exchanged? How many disappeared? How much information did you get during, you know, this back and
7:06 forth? Uh, and once again, this is likely something that is um, uh, not an ongoing, you know, customer account
7:15 management thing, but maybe they followed up on a lead uh, and contacted you. Now, you could have called them or you decide to email them and now we
7:25 start this little thing and how many disappeared and you so you get some numbers, right? And then you ask the question, now how much of that information do you think you could have
7:32 gotten >> in a five minute phone call >> or a 10-minute phone call, >> you know, as soon as you got the lead um and um you know, you use technology
7:44 uh and you whether it be, you know, Calendarly or whatever. There's all kind of ways to schedule, have auler, and you reach out, somebody reaches out, you
7:55 have a message. If you're insistent on using email first, then say, "Hey, I see you're interested. Let me tell you what my process is for those who are interested." Blah, blah, blah. We
8:05 usually have a brief phone call, maybe 10, 15 minutes. Uh, figure out, you know, figure out this and that and the other. If you're open to doing so,
8:14 here's my link. Schedule schedule some time. We'll we'll do that. That's if you're insistent on having an email. You know, you don't have to go back to the
8:24 lab and mix everything up. have something you can copy and paste and make a minor adjustment or two, but your intent is to talk and you're telling them you have to talk. I'm not here to
8:34 answer all your questions just because you asked, we need to talk. And I always teach my clients, if it's something hard for you to say, then simply blame it on
8:45 your process. You know, in my process, this is what I do. Hey, you know, if it were up to me, I'd do something different, but this dog on process Yeah.
8:54 >> makes me do something. So, that that's one of the things that I would um that I suggest to help um you know, really really map it out. Figure out what's
9:03 going on now, where are the holes, and what would it be like? and then have this uh this um uh uh um easily ex
9:13 executable um repeatable action that you can take to drive yourself to a phone call or a Zoom meeting or whatever it is. Yeah, it's uh it's funny like the
9:23 more I learn about sales from like you know talking to really like accomplished sales leaders and trainers that people don't really know what they're talking
9:29 about the more it feels like it's like I feel like I'm like falling back into project management but with a different intent to some degree and maybe even not
9:38 I mean that's probably even like wrong to say it's like project management but then it's at a different stage of the customer journey >> because I used to work in an operations
9:45 uh setting and we would have these emails going back and forth on these complex you know technical things we're to work. And it was like, hey, if you
9:53 get a if you get to the spot where you send them a second email, skip the second email. You call them cuz this is going to turn into either 30 emails and
10:00 like 3 days of just floundering all over the place or it's going to be a five minute conversation. You're going to get it all done.
10:07 >> And then the big thing that happened when we started implementing that as a rule was we started having better relationships with our customers, right?
10:14 Because we were building that rapport. And I don't know, do you see that there is like a difference in the rapport building when you're having a phone call
10:21 versus having these email conversations? >> Oh yeah, absolutely. And with one of my um current clients, um you know, the you
10:30 know, it's kind of pulling pulling teeth to get one of the individuals to to call. But I mean, it didn't take long for her to realize that the kind of
10:39 conversation she got into, the kind of information that she um that she um you know, gleaned from from the call. And you know, nobody nobody yelled at her,
10:50 nobody put out a hit on her. Everything's just fine. And so therefore, >> um it's just this scary monster that they're not used to. But yeah, they see
11:00 that um that there is a relationship uh that's built a lot quicker. They get more information and yeah, it just now
11:09 it just builds and changes that belief and that's what we're trying to do. Some of these non-supportive beliefs we have, you know, end up cutting us at the knees
11:19 in sales. So, we have to develop a new belief and act under that belief system instead.
11:26 >> Yeah. one of the So, I've only been actually seriously cold calling for let's call it about a year now, maybe a little bit less. Um, before we were kind
11:34 of hiding behind emails, which I look back and I'm just like I just want to shake myself and be like, you know, how much time you wasted hiding behind
11:40 emails instead of making phone calls. It's like, ah. >> Um, but one of the things that like as I was kind of sitting there and thinking through like, all right, I'm making
11:48 these phone calls. First of all, everyone seems really receptive these days. I think everyone's over the emails, the LinkedIn messages. they would rather just pick up the phone,
11:56 call and they don't mind chatting for a bit. Uh, but I had to change my mindset on I used to be like, I feel like I'm interrupting them. I'm interrupting
12:04 their day. I'm coming into their personal space. I'm kind of like getting in the way. And then I finally came to this realization. I was like, you know what? This is like part of their
12:11 professional role. Like I'm calling them in regards to something that's relevant to their day-to-day. They are open to this. If we were at a networking event
12:18 and I walked up, introduced myself, shook their hand, that would be no more of or no less of an intrusion than me calling them on a phone in a professional setting and having that
12:28 professional conversation. And that really turned a light bulb for me and being like, >> hey, like this isn't an intrusion on their day. This is a, you know,
12:37 professional conversation. They have every right to say no thank you like immediately into the conversation.
12:42 That's no big deal. That's not a reflection on them. It's not a reflection on me. But then being able to pick up the phone after that was just so much easier once I got the head trash
12:50 out of the way and was able to just be like, "Hey, I'm just doing my job.
12:54 They're just doing their job." >> Yeah. >> There may not be I might not find the book or the hole. I might I might find the hole.
13:01 >> Yeah. I mean, look, if they get mad, that's their problem, not yours.
13:04 >> Yeah. >> Right. I mean, I I don't uh you know, I I you you get spam calls or cold calls or whatever all the time. And uh many
13:14 times what irritates me the most is how they start the call. Hey, you know, I'll answer the call. Hello, this is James.
13:21 Yes, may I speak to James? Okay, hold on a second. Were you listening or are you following a script? What what what's happening here? Uh or hey, uh how are
13:30 you today? You don't care. You don't care. You know what? My my knee's hurting me and my back. I'm getting old.
13:35 Do you really want to know that? >> Or or or do we want to do you want to just tell me, hey, listen. I I know you weren't expecting me to call. Um, and
13:43 you can be honest. One of the best ways to open a cold call we teach is, you know, I got to be honest. This is a cold call.
13:50 >> It may or may not be beneficial for you. You know, can I can I kind of tell you why I why I called and and you can determine, you know, should we, you
13:59 know, does is it worth a conversation? It may not be. >> Yeah. >> That's it. Release the pressure valve.
14:06 And uh, you know, and I get those calls here and there. always think, hm, you must be a Sandler client because, you know, whatever. And I say, yeah, sure,
14:13 go for it. I reward them because they were, as we call it, disarmingly honest.
14:18 They didn't ask me how my day was. They didn't ask me, you know, did my favorite who, you know, did my favorite team win the Super Bowl? The Seahawks did win the
14:28 Super Bowl. Uh but anyway um you know yeah it's just once again it's it's how you
14:36 you know how you set the mind uh set your own mind as to um what how are you going to direct that call to the degree
14:46 that you have control of how they feel >> which you have very little. Well, then are you going to exacerbate a bad feeling or are you going to surprise
14:57 them with something that is just refreshingly original, honest, straightforward, and maybe, you know,
15:06 life is about timing. Maybe you called at the right time with the right thing um in the in the right moment. Simple as that.
15:13 >> Yeah. I mean, that, you know, I will attest to the that structure, the opening line structure that you're talking about. I think I've made a couple thousand calls in the last year.
15:21 Um, easily, maybe more. Well, not a couple thousand. That's that's a big range. You know, I've had one person get upset with me. I've got plenty of no
15:30 thanks and not right now. And like all that kind of stuff, which is, you know, they're being honest. That's what I'm looking for. And really, if you say,
15:38 "Hey, do you have a minute?" Or, you know, however you want to structure that, and someone says, "No, thanks."
15:42 That's not that's not negative. That's just a no, they don't. All right, cool. And it's over. I had one person be like, "How did you find my number? Delete it.
15:49 Never call me ever again." It's like, "Okay, well, if I'm batting one for a,000, one for 2,000, I think I can wake up confidently every day and go, the
15:56 likelihood that somebody on the other end of this line is going to be at least polite is enormous." And the fact that the likelihood that somebody is going to
16:05 be rude >> if I give them the opportunity to release the pressure valve. Now flip side, I get phone calls, you know, I get the cold call and somebody just dives
16:14 into something and they just don't even let me like like what is happening right now? What are you talking about?
16:19 Somebody told me to go to their website and start looking through their services to decide which ones I wanted.
16:24 >> I was like, I'm not engaging with this. Like this is crazy, right?
16:28 >> What are you talking about? I mean, you haven't given me a reason to do so. You haven't earned the right to ask that >> is what I was saying. And for that
16:35 person who got mad, how'd you how did you get my number? and that sort of thing. I have one piece of advice. Don't answer the phone unless you know who's
16:42 calling you. How's that? How is that? Since you you you clearly don't like strangers calling you, you know what? If they're not in your contacts, just let
16:50 it ring. Go let listen to the voicemail. It'll save them. It'll lower their blood pressure. You know, >> I mean, anytime I pick up a phone number I don't know, I'm like, there's a 95%
17:00 chance this is somebody I don't know who is cold calling, but I'm like, you know what, for, you know, I'm in the game, they're in the game. Let's see what's
17:06 going on. and maybe there is a good opportunity here and it is just like a timing thing and so like yeah absolutely nothing wrong with getting out there and
17:14 doing it. Yeah, I'm reminded I'm reminded of a Sandler colleague I have uh uh he's up in in in Canada. He has in his office he has you know people have
17:22 the no soliciting signs. He just says no bad soliciting, you know, which is good, you know, and it's no no bad cold calling, but you know, you can I'll
17:32 accept uh a decent reach out if you if you do it well. But once again, it goes full circle to the kind of pressure
17:41 you're putting on yourself to pick up the phone and what you're going to say when you when you call. You know, you're defeating yourself half the time. uh you know with with the mindset
17:53 that I'm going to be interrupting and oh this is going to go terrible. >> Yeah. Yeah. So with this I mean I totally agree with the power of the phone in prospecting. Like I think it
18:02 has to be a centerpiece. Um you know it's funny because like at the very beginning of my career I worked a couple jobs where I was a salesperson but I was
18:09 untrained. I didn't really know what I was doing but there was an expectation >> that I was making cold calls.
18:14 >> I was actually selling stuff. Like >> probably could have done a lot better if I actually had some good training and guidance. maybe the same other person in
18:20 my life helped me, but I didn't, you know, whatever. >> I go into operations for a while. I come back, I try to start selling again for, you know, my own business
18:29 >> and I'm hiding from the phone and I'm like, why isn't this working? I feel like I've gotten smarter over the years and I finally pick up the phone and
18:35 everything changes. So, like total total belief that like the phone is going to make a huge foundational piece. That being said, you know, what are your
18:42 thoughts on other types of prospecting? What else could you build into your outreach? or do you think is it pure just phone only and nothing else?
18:50 >> Yeah. No, you know, I'm glad you asked that question. We say in in Sandler, you know, strive for five to thrive basically. You know, five in general,
18:58 five separate and distinct prospecting avenues uh to pursue um for several reasons. A to break up the monotony um but B I mean you're not
19:09 going to necessarily reach everybody you know by phone or just through one method. So, you know, if you're if most of your opportunities are, you know,
19:19 really built through cold prospecting, then yeah, the phone sure is one of them. Um u uh you know, what kind of
19:28 networking opportunities do you have? And they come in all kind of shapes, forms, and sizes. There's structured, there's unstructured. Uh but maybe there's that aspect of it that breaks
19:38 things up. Um, you know, the we talk about cold prospecting, but one of the things I always tell my clients is, you know, um, you know, what what do I call
19:49 them? We call them resurrection calls, you know, or recapture calls. You know, how much are you reaching out to past um, clients or or even past prospects
19:58 where it didn't work out, you know, that's a little quote unquote warmer.
20:03 You know, I mean, once again, life is about timing. Maybe it didn't maybe the timing wasn't there, but do you have built into your schedule the time that
20:10 you uh reach out to folks that uh maybe said no before or clients that you work with for a little while and then it maybe that engagement ended. But there's
20:19 another way to do that. Uh for some industries um you know, how are you positioning yourself as um a as a quote
20:29 unquote expert? You know, through speaking opportunities. It doesn't have to be some keynote for a 5,000 uh uh 5,000
20:38 person crowd. You know, uh there are organizations uh and associations all over the place.
20:45 If you just quite frankly go to um go to the web or I don't chat GPT or claude and say, "Hey, what are the associations in my in my state or in my city?" Um and
20:57 then here's the thing, people don't do this. cold call the associations >> for speaking opportunities because they're always and a lot of them always
21:06 looking for ways to bring value to their membership.
21:10 >> And so now you show up subject matter expert, you know, I'm telling you because I've done this um it a the
21:19 reception a you don't feel so bad because you're not trying to sell anything. Um, but the reception is is tremendous and now you get a chance to
21:29 do some some some speaking obligations and you know we call them free talks and whether you get paid for it or not and all of a sudden at the end of the talk
21:39 you know somebody says hey listen can I >> talk to you more because you said something that makes me think was worth the conversation. So you know I know I
21:48 said strive for five to thrive but I mean those are four right there. uh that come to mind and certainly a a a strategic way of using LinkedIn.
21:58 >> Yeah. >> And and and connecting with folks there. You can throw that in as a fifth one.
22:02 So, um people just aren't as uh probably aren't as creative uh or thinking outside the box, if you will, as they as
22:11 they should. Uh but I think once you do, some things actually come to, you know, come to mind for you that um that can work pretty well. Yeah. I mean, one of
22:22 my five is cold calling people to see if they'd be happy to share their expertise on a podcast. And by doing that, I got to have a great conversation with you,
22:30 which is like it's a super fun one. Now, I'm still cold calling direct to customers and not creating, you know, great content because I get to lean on experts. But
22:38 >> at the same time, like the one of my five is, >> hey, let me get smart people to help help me learn more, put together some cool clips, put them on LinkedIn, get
22:47 some conversations out of that. I mean, it's it's it's can be really eye opening if you really like start like playing with the edges and seeing what are some
22:54 other ways that I can get out there and, you know, start conversations beyond just picking up the phone.
23:00 >> Right. Right. >> Picking up the phone to start those. >> Uhhuh. Well, hopefully your strategy will will will work well with having me come on and give you some sort of uh I
23:10 don't know, whatever benefit you're looking for. >> Um, but you know, in the end, but like you say, that is a strategy. Once again, that's uh creative and hopefully
23:19 somebody watching this will think, hold on a second. Can I can I incorporate podcast in my somehow someway? I don't know. You just never know.
23:28 >> Podcasting or, you know, maybe it's blogging or guest writing or something. I think there's plenty of things out there where it can be I would say
23:34 they'll say always go back to the phone and be using it because it's so so powerful. But there's a lot of opportunities. Um, real quick, >> I don't want to I don't want to go too
23:43 over upfront contract because we are past the half hour mark, but uh, any other, you know, um, parting thoughts or something to summarize kind of the
23:51 conversation that you want to leave an impact with people as as they finish up this podcast episode?
23:57 >> Um, the the only thing that comes to mind for me, I guess, I mean, I guess if I thought about it, I kind of have a few things, but I I'll I'll stick to this.
24:05 You know, we say in um Sandler, you know, it's unethical to sell something to somebody that they don't need, but it's equally uneth unethical to not sell
24:16 something to somebody that they do need. And so, when it comes to prospecting, who are you not contacting out there that may actually need what you do?
24:26 >> Yeah. >> And you know, that that that sums it up. That's another mindset >> to say, I don't know if this person does or not, but I'm about to find out to see
24:35 if I could put them in one bucket or the other. And >> yeah, >> boom, there you go.
24:40 >> I never thought of it that way, but I really like that a lot. >> James, I appreciate it. Hey, pleasure talking to you. Thank you again for coming on the show.
24:48 >> Absolutely. Thanks, Austin. Appreciate it.