Dan Stalp on Sales Cookbooks, KPI Tracking, and Better Habits

Transcript

0:04 All right, we have another episode of Tailwind. Today I'm joined by Dan Stout.

0:07 He Can you Dan, tell me a little bit more about you? I didn't have enough time to do that enough research today.

0:12 >> That's all right. So, yeah, I own a Sandler franchise out of the Kansas City area. And uh I've been at that for almost 21 years. Prior to that, I owned

0:22 I was co-owner in a benefits brokerage. So, it was uh all those perks that you offer your employees like health insurance and all that kind of stuff. But now what I do is

0:30 I'm a growth advisor and I help sales and sales leaders that uh have a gap between where they are either financially, uh emotionally, or even um

0:40 just that they're just working too hard and they want to maybe make the same amount of money but with less time.

0:46 >> Yeah. I mean, who doesn't want to make the same amount or more money while making less effort?

0:50 >> You'd be surprised. There are people that don't. >> All right. Well, >> [laughter] >> I know. Who knew?

0:56 >> a whole psychological breakdown that we could do. But uh for the intents and purposes of this one, you know, we talked a little bit beforehand and we're talking about

1:06 cookbook and how to execute on that. Um would love to hear kind of like your starting place and you know, the the foundational aspect of how you start

1:13 getting in the cookbook and making it work for you. >> Yeah, you bet. So, back in 1995 when I had my benefits bro brokerage, I became a client of Sandler. So, I was a

1:23 client for 10 years before I actually, you know, started doing this full-time.

1:27 And the cookbook was introduced to me at the time. And uh I have a little bit of a a math part to my my thinking just because I've always been good at it. But

1:36 uh just in case you guys are familiar with DISC, I'm a I'm an ID. So, I'm not very good with details, don't have a lot of details. But for some reason, I

1:47 really picked up on the cookbook because I think it's mainly cuz I was competitive and I just wanted to compete with myself. Like, how am I doing? What are

1:55 my efficiency scores? So, for the next 20 deck or 20 years, two decades, I just kept in a spreadsheet.

2:03 >> Got you. >> And that sufficed until a few years ago when I had more clients that were interested in doing it. I went out and put an app, you know, paid someone to

2:13 put an app together and it's just so much better and I don't have to maintain it. >> Yeah. When you're when you're doing the competition, you know, I tend to compete

2:20 with other people and maybe that's just cuz I like sports background and stuff.

2:23 Um when you but you're talking about competing against yourself, which you know, I you know, it's probably the healthiest way to do it and especially if, you know, somebody is a sole

2:30 proprietor, that's the only person they can compete against. >> Yeah. >> Have you noticed any difference in competing against yourself or even bringing in the idea of competing

2:39 against somebody else? >> Well, it's been interesting. I when I was back as a benefits broker, I couldn't get my three business partners to do it.

2:48 >> Yeah. >> So, it wasn't an option to compete against them. I did compete in the terms of outcomes. But what I really like about KPIs is you can compete in terms

2:59 of like I get in front of or I get return calls from 26% of the people I make an outreach to. Of those, I meet

3:08 with half of them. Of those, I sell a blank. That part to me is also very competitive. Um I just I don't know it's just how I'm wired. I I have a strength

3:18 coach and I always tell him, "How many did you do last time?" They go, "Dan, don't worry about it. We're just looking for good reps." I go, "No, I need to know."

3:25 >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> I mean, if I did 10 or 11 last time, I'm definitely going to do at least 10 or 11. That's just That's just how I'm wired. So, the cookbook really allows me

3:35 to not only look at the big part, which is the outcomes, which have been phenomenal, but all those little things that I don't

3:44 know for whatever reason it motivates me and I I just like to know how I'm doing.

3:49 >> I want to dive into the the little things and how you can kind of look at all of it, but really curious you you started adopting your own cookbook. You have the business partners

3:57 who aren't adopting. I mean, what do those conversations look like when they see you getting results and outcomes and then still are deciding to not

4:05 follow the path of success that's been laid out in front of them. >> Yeah. Well, and I have the same conversation. Now, when people who have worked for me, they're on the cookbook,

4:12 okay? So, that that's um you know, that's a that we just talk about that up front.

4:17 That's not negotiable cuz I I can't support you and coach you if I don't know what's happening. And the other thing about cookbook, and this is why some people don't like it, is

4:26 you can't hide. >> Mhm. >> And but there's a lot of non-supportive thinking out there about tracking sales KPIs, such as you're just trying to be

4:37 Big Brother. Or you're just trying to micromanage me. Or you're trying to control me. Or you're trying And here's the thing, that's what people have done. I mean,

4:45 history has told them that. There were people that were turning in the all this information that management needed and they would actually put, you know,

4:56 really bad things in the middle of it and they knew management wasn't even reading it.

5:00 >> Yeah. >> Like they would have probably got fired if they would have found what was in there. And they knew they weren't reading it. So, there's a lot of

5:06 non-supportive head trash around that. So, what I attempt to do is just to say, "Hey, look, this is um meant to empower and encourage you, not to

5:17 micromanage you." And so, but even at that, only about 30 to 35% of our clients are even remotely doing a KPI cookbook. They just they just don't want

5:27 to do it. >> Now, do you think that it's uh purely coming down to prospecting is difficult and it can be, you know, kind of an emotional roller coaster to go

5:36 through and that's why they try to avoid it and come up with excuses or do you think there's other like how what do you What's your interpretation there?

5:42 >> You know, it just seems like a lot of pushback I get to is, "Well, our CRM can't track that. So, we'll we'll go in and we'll get the CRM so I can track

5:51 that. And they're just always looking for like this really easy way to do it. And I just keep saying, "Hey, look, your CRM is not the key to cookbook.

6:02 >> Yeah. >> It could be a way to track these things, but that doesn't form the habit. You've got to form the habit, and you can form the habit with pencil and paper. So,

6:12 some of my clients where I thought, is this just be a us like okay, you know, putting the pacifier in my mouth so I go away and stop crying, or is this really

6:20 that they really want to do it, but they think they have to have CRM to do it?

6:23 And so, what um the ones that say, "Oh, well, how would I do it?" I go, "It's really simple." And someone that's kind of old school, I go, "Well, old school works. And it's basically

6:33 just putting hash marks." >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> And I can actually show an example of that.

6:39 >> Yeah, I'm about to see it. >> You're like, okay. >> Yeah, definitely. >> Let me jump in there real quick. I didn't think about this until now.

6:47 >> Yeah. >> And it's nothing It's like this. It's real simple.

6:53 >> I think too, one of the things that can be like um over complicating it is just not understanding that at the very beginning, it's totally fine if it's

7:01 just building the habit. Even if it's not it being effective, it's like, okay, build the habit, then we can make it effective. Can also be like a way to think about it.

7:10 >> And that's what this is. >> Yeah, that's perfect. Yeah, why else do you you don't need anything else other than this, right?

7:17 >> And I've literally had people push back on this. It's old school.

7:21 I'm like, yeah, I mean, it's so what? I mean, here's the other part of this. If you're just checking boxes in CRM, you don't really have a sense for what went down that week, but I know

7:31 exactly what went down this week. And how hard is this? I just, you know, I just feel like people have gotten really, really soft on things. And um

7:40 but this is all we need. And so, what I tell people is if you track this for 1 month, I'll put you in the app. If I don't get this, you don't get to be put in the

7:49 app. >> Yeah. And so with that, and I know we've talked about this in the past, so I'm going to cherry-pick it out, but um, you know, I'm looking at that, I don't see

7:57 the name of the people, the proof of like a LinkedIn message like sent, anything like that, which you might say like, "Well, I need CRM to do all of that." Um, but then how do you

8:07 make sure that >> So then I say, "Well, now that's a whole 'nother function. They they they do need to be putting in things in CRM, but it doesn't need to come from CRM

8:18 to track this, because inevitably 99% of the time, there's one of those things that they're not tracking."

8:27 >> Mhm. >> Maybe two two things. And so all I'm saying is that doesn't need to stop you.

8:32 Just keep doing what you're doing in CRM. This is just for another exercise. Well, I don't want to duplicate. Oh my god, I mean, how long does it take to put a hash mark? It's It's so

8:41 interesting. Um, so uh, but then once you get a month's worth, then you start to have some credible data.

8:48 >> And even with that, like let's say that somebody like, you know, goes in there and they start saying, "Oh, I did 10 today." and they just mark 10.

8:55 At the end of the month, you're going to be like, "Well, you might have done 250 this month, but you got nothing out of this. What's going on?"

9:01 >> Right. >> And you can really start tracking even with that level of simplicity, you know, yes, there's a more sophistication. We want to record things. We want to learn

9:08 from, you know, better data, but at the end of the day, even the piece of paper is going to be enough to, you know, force >> And what's going to happen is um, people

9:17 say, "Well, what if they put false data in?" That's going to happen.

9:21 >> Yeah. >> But it's going to hurt them. Here's why.

9:26 You have You have a North Star of I want to bring in $800,000.

9:30 >> Mhm. >> And it's tracking your sales and your KPIs. So if you're fudging attempts and things, and you're not reaching your goal

9:40 every month your number of attempts goes up there cuz you're not being effective.

9:46 So what happens is they get found out in a hurry.

9:49 They're like wait how come I have to do 10 a day or 20 a day now and last week we only had to do 12 because you're not being effective.

10:00 So if they were lying about things they're like ooh this isn't working.

10:04 >> [laughter] >> And at some point in time you're just going well I have to increase my lies and some way becomes untenable. It's like there's no way of making it or they

10:13 start looking for the next you know unsuspecting victim that they're going to go work for cuz they don't want to work.

10:19 Right. Unfortunately prospecting is part of the sales job and you just got to do it and some people love it and some people struggle with it but it's neither here nor there. It's

10:28 something that must be done. Um but for me the KPIs are really about new business.

10:34 >> Yeah now keeping clients is super important. You know I personally have a goal of 80% or 20% or less attrition which in our

10:43 business is really good. That means we're keeping our clients an average of 5 years and I've really had to work up to that but even at that

10:52 you know the highest or the lowest attrition I've ever had that means I'm replacing 20% of my business every year just to stay even and I got a lot more business now than I

11:01 did in the past. You know things just happen. You know people get acquired people go out of business.

11:07 My person that I'm working with you know leaves or gets fired or whatever so I just know that my attrition rate's 20% so I'm only looking at this for new

11:17 business. I'm not counting in any recurring business.

11:21 That that new but it can come from existing accounts and which is the lowest hanging fruit expanding them. It can come from

11:30 recapturing. We have a care model in Sandler.

11:34 K for keep, A for attain, which is brand new logos, R for recapture, people who left us come back, E for expand. And so that's what I'm tracking here, the A,

11:44 the R, and the E in the in the cookbook. >> Yeah. >> Attain, brand new logos, recapture, people that worked with us in the past, or expand current

11:53 relationships. >> Yeah. So earlier you were talking about the like the step-by-step by step incremental KPIs to understand that and

12:01 we you know we kind of went over to uh you know having the conversation and then we talked about the end, which is hey, like these results are going to

12:08 pile up whether or not you're actually doing in the job. So what is the uh that middle part? How do they manage that?

12:14 How do they get those insights as they're trying to gather that data and start to understand beyond just like the end part?

12:20 >> Well, it kind of depends on your frequency of sales. Like personally, for me to meet my goal every year, um on average, I need to sell 30 new

12:29 things. >> Mhm. >> So that that's about 2.5 new sales a month.

12:34 And so with that frequency, if I start putting in data, within 3 months, >> Yeah.

12:40 >> I would say it is 70% credible. Meaning that it it it's definitely giving me a

12:49 a peek into the future. But if I am selling software to higher education and I only make three sales a year, that's going to take longer. But you

12:59 will start to see the efficiency rates start to improve.

13:03 >> Right. >> So um one of my clients that was in this, when he first started, he had a $3 million goal.

13:11 >> Mhm. >> And after we started tracking things, he needed to make 13 new attempts a day.

13:17 Within 2 years of Now he had not been in Sandler before, um but he also was new to the company. So he had a couple of things that were working against him. He

13:25 He know Sandler and he'd he new to the company. >> Yeah. >> But within 3 years, his goal was moved up to 4.2 million. So, let's call that a 32 33% increase.

13:35 But he had gotten his daily attempts down to five. >> Damn.

13:39 >> Yeah, that's great. >> And he incrementally was seeing it go from 13 to 11 to eight to six to five and his goal increased. And I personally

13:48 have experienced that, too. And so, some of my clients are not as motivated by the money >> Okay.

13:55 >> as they are by the "Oh my gosh, I'm I think I can get this down to five new attempts a day and meet my goal."

14:02 >> Yeah. >> as opposed to 13. That's a lot. >> Yeah, that that's an incredible change in efficiency. Just going from 13 to five and going

14:12 >> And your goal went up. >> And the amount of going up go go up. And I'm assuming his goal went up because he was succeeding and they weren't just

14:18 bumping it up cuz they had a number that they wanted to hit. >> Uh well, in his situation, because he was newer, they they his goal was less.

14:26 >> Uh Yeah. >> Yeah. And then, you know, then they they kind of are consistently And they also look at the territory, too, what the territory's done. But I think part of it

14:34 was just that he had made it. And then, you know, more is expected. And I don't think it was just because he was um you know, doing better. That that

14:42 that was expected. But the cool part was he could get to, you know, 4.2 in five new attempts a day versus 2.9 at 13 new attempts a day.

14:53 >> So, when you have somebody who has, let's say, like a longer sales cycle, you know, six, nine, 12 months to get it done, how are you helping them maintain

15:01 that, you know, like it's these numbers are going to come through that the numbers are going to come through like there's that that period of time where

15:06 it's like, "Are they though?" And then, you know, you need to keep them on track. >> Yeah, so what we can look at instead Do you mind if I share a little >> Please do.

15:14 >> part here. Um what Now, we have to have some sales in there for this to all work cuz remember, it's reverse engineering backwards.

15:22 But, uh Let me go here. But, what you can see are I should probably go to a different one

15:32 here. But, you can see that your efficiency scores are increasing. Like, for example, um new attempts to conversations. So, let's

15:43 say right now, you know, I'm not sharing, am I? >> Not yet.

15:47 But, I'm tracking. There we go. There we go. >> So, like, for example, now this is me after 20-some years, but um 48.3% of the people that I attempt to reach

15:58 either call me back or respond. But, let's say, as an example, someone was at 12% and they're steadily seeing this number go up to

16:07 14, 16. See, that's all going to roll up into the reverse engineering of this number.

16:13 >> Yep. >> Or, let's say they're um you know, if they have a conversation that they actually are meeting. Now, for me, you're going to go, "Dan, you're only

16:21 meeting 13% of the people you conversation with?" Yeah, because 80% of the people we talk to um frankly aren't candidates for what we do, but we have to talk to them. Now,

16:31 someone else, you know, that would So, that's actually a good number for me because it's important that I disqualify people who just want to come to a 2-hour

16:40 deal and check the box versus someone who wants to work with me for 5 years.

16:43 But, so But, I I can help with that. But, then once we meet, you can see that the quote um percentage is high, you know, because

16:53 they've been qualified. And then, of course, the sales, 90% of the quotes become sales.

16:59 But, those are all things that you can start to look at even before the numbers come in, but you have to have something in there from a sales perspective

17:07 because it's reverse engineering. >> Yeah. >> So, this is my number. Now, you can't do 0.3 a day, but we know how much that is a week, and then this is me being held

17:17 accountable to myself. >> Mhm. >> Over the last year, now I've gotten better. It says I needed to have 845, but I had 959.

17:26 But part of that is because I've become more effective. >> Right.

17:32 So then for So it seems though like even with that um you know, if you're looking at the the 6 months and sales cycle, like yes, we

17:41 want to see the sale come in, but focus on just the new meetings >> Those are KPIs, yeah.

17:46 >> And then once you get the new meetings booked, start looking at the okay, am I getting to the next step? And then you're going to see the numbers kind of

17:52 go up and down over the course of would you expect a year, 2 years? Like what do you think would be the amount of time you'd need to really see the numbers start steadying out?

18:01 >> Uh well, I would say if someone is selling at least one thing a month, you know, that's their and I you know, again, just at least one of one sale a

18:09 month, that's the that they they'll have credible data in in a year.

18:16 >> Right. >> Now, does that mean it's going to just come in like clockwork?

18:20 No. >> Yeah. Before you were saying >> I'm very you know, my number's not that big, so I can be pretty consistent with it, but you can see here if we go back here for a second,

18:31 um you know, I'm pretty consistent with my attempts. There's no huge swings there.

18:38 >> Mhm. >> But look how clumpy my sales are. >> Right.

18:43 >> So what I always tell people is sales is a clumpy business.

18:48 You know, and the only thing I can control is being consistently on the prospecting side.

18:53 But what a lot of people do is they pros they kind of run a marathon, but they're sprinting and stopping and throwing up and then walking and running and

19:00 sprinting and you know, and that's just you're just never going to get a good score for that, but you feel terrible.

19:05 So if you can just be consistent, even then your sales be clumpy, but if you're also prospecting clumpy, your sales are going to be really clumpy. Cuz it's

19:14 clumpy even when you're consistent. It's just It's going to happen when it happens. You can't make people buy from you. But some months are more, some are

19:21 less, but over the course of time, 12 months, it becomes very credible.

19:26 >> Yeah. Well, I mean, for me, it's like uh we might be doing everything exactly right, but a different IT department or a different legal department or a

19:33 different whatever situation is going to extend regardless of, you know, all of that. So, even with like maybe you got the wrong 10 people, or maybe you get

19:41 the right 10 people, and then it might just clump just based on that.

19:46 >> And that's why it's so important to focus on you know, the process.

19:51 You know, my process is 3. you know, 20 a week versus just looking at the outcomes. When people look at the outcomes, it's kind of like they take their foot off the gas, they

20:00 they floor it, they punch it, you know, they're just like this all the time looking at outcomes, and that's just a really hard way to live. Instead, just

20:06 keep just keep your foot on the gas. Sometimes you're going 90, sometimes you're going 20. You just keep your foot on the gas, and then you will have more consistent results.

20:15 >> So, part of what I'm, you know, we're also saying is you're becoming more efficient, you're getting more replies.

20:20 That's a skill thing, right? So, how are we How do you look at those numbers, and you look at your KPIs, and knowing the clumpiness of it, you know, use the ability to go, "Okay,

20:29 the messaging I am using is working or isn't working."

20:33 And And be able to identify that through the clumpiness. >> Yeah. So, what really works well is when you have teams that are on this, because then you can compare

20:41 um you basically have a a and I um you can have a dashboard. So, like I can look at, you know, why is Austin, you know, able to do four a day and do

20:51 better than me doing 12 a day, but I can look at his efficiency scores. And then what I can do is say, "Hey, I noticed that you're um getting in front You're

20:59 getting responses from 10% more than I am." What are you saying, or what What's your 30-second commercial? You see how you can just kind of go right to it or I

21:10 notice that you you're not quoting as you know, your your quotes are way down from mine but you have a higher closing ratio. What are you doing? Well,

21:18 I'm qualifying. Well, how are you qualifying? So, what it does is if you have a team, it really allows you to ask those really pointed questions as

21:27 opposed to just seeming like magic that you can do four a day and do twice the amount of business I do.

21:34 >> In other words, you say that I mean obviously like week to week that number might go up and down so it's let the data accumulate for a certain period

21:40 of time so you can start seeing a real trend. >> Yeah, it's like watching the stock market every day. You don't want to do that. So, that's the same way with this.

21:48 You just want to just be consistent and then look at it over a period of time and I would say for most people at least 90 days to be able to just kind of

21:56 interpret what's really going on. >> Yeah, which can be tough.

22:01 But having to think over I'm going to do something for 90 days and then only after the 90 days am I going to even get to start to think about how to improve.

22:08 I think I would assume would it be then another 90 days to see if the improvement's working?

22:13 >> It depends on your sales cycle. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, if your sales cycle's 6 weeks, you'd already see results.

22:19 >> That's right. Yeah. >> sales cycle's 6 months, yeah. As you know, what's in the pipeline now is really based on things you did you know, several months ago not so much

22:28 what you're doing now. But but you know, that's the difference between people who thrive in sales and people who survive in sales.

22:35 People who survive in sales won't do that. They don't want to wait. They think there's a shortcut. People who thrive pay attention to the little things that matter. Not just the little

22:44 things but the little things that matter. They're in those details inspecting what they expect.

22:50 >> Yeah. Are there ever any trends that you look at within like the first 90 days? You know, obviously like the the data's going to show you over 90 days but do you ever

22:58 have any like red flag and go like hey, I know I've only been doing this for 30 days, but I'm seeing enough data to say something is off. I don't know exactly

23:06 what, but we have to we have to do an analysis here." >> Yeah, it's usually with the attempts to conversations.

23:11 >> Yeah. >> That's that's the first. Um worst case scenario I had this woman who was a lovely person.

23:17 Um she didn't have much direction. She was seasoned and she came in she goes, "I've made 400 calls in the last 3 months and I've only had

23:26 two people call me back." >> Yeah. >> Okay, so that that's an example of there's something wrong in her voice message, something wrong in her

23:36 emails, maybe she's not leaving a voicemail, maybe she's not I don't know, but that that's a cause for pause, you know? I mean, I think even cold calls

23:44 100% cold calls you could expect 1.5% back. >> Yeah.

23:49 >> Would that be what? Four No. 400 I guess that'd be four or five, but you know, something wasn't right there. So, that that allowed us to really dig down in

23:57 her in her 30-second commercial was horrible. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a those are hard to figure out how to do at the beginning. I remember it's only been

24:04 about a year since I started developing my own and I remember being terrible.

24:08 >> Yeah. Well, and that's okay, you know, if you're a year or two in and still terrible, that's not okay.

24:14 >> Yeah. So, would you say even like, you know, 100 calls in if you're getting no conversations, maybe start taking a look in the mirror and go like, "I don't need

24:23 to wait for 400 calls. >> Yeah. >> And some people, you know, that's only about a week to 10 days that they make that many contacts. Others, that could be months.

24:32 >> Mhm. >> Yeah, so it really just depends, but yeah, and you got to give it enough time that they can call you back or respond, but yeah, there's you can just always

24:40 poke at or maybe they're talking to people but they're not getting any appointments.

24:44 >> Yeah. >> So, then you have to ask yourself, how how can we be at least talking to people and not getting appointments?

24:48 Something's missing there and that just allows you to as the manager or even yourself if you work for yourself to coach yourself like something's not right here.

24:56 >> Yeah. All right, we're running up on time. I want to respect the hard stop. >> You bet.

25:00 >> Any final summary or final thoughts before we wrap this guy up?

25:04 >> Well, you mentioned something about, you know, 90 days and that get you know, actually, 90 days go so fast, but I would say if someone's willing to commit 30 days, >> Mhm.

25:13 >> you're well on your way. And I always say, you can do anything for 30 days.

25:17 Get over yourself. You know, and so I just think, you know, people are just looking for that shortcut and technology has helped us, but it won't

25:27 form the habit. These are about forming better habits and those habits lead to quantum leaps.

25:35 >> And a piece of paper can form a habit. There's no question about it. >> That's simple.

25:39 >> Yeah. Yeah, I really appreciate the time. >> You bet. Appreciate you having me on. >> Yeah.

25:43 >> All right. Take care.